6 ms·

Expecting return to office will boost worker productivity is 'magical thinking'

97 points by pg_1234 3y ago

habitue 3y ago
https://archive.ph/mfZeZ https://archive.ph/mfZeZ
wildrhythms 3y ago
The coordinated RTO push is about tax breaks that these companies receive for bringing workers into the city. Just another way for the wealthy to not pay their fair share of taxes on the backs of the workers who use their own time and money commuting. >New Jersey and Texas are states that stand out for spelling out exactly how often employees must work from the office to qualify for tax breaks. Before the pandemic, several New Jersey tax programs required workers to show up at least 80% of the time, and one Texas program set the threshold at 50%. >Provisions like these were designed to ensure that the jobs boosted local revenue from income, sales and property taxes, and bolstered downtown economies. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-threat-to-work-from-home-tax-breaks https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-t...
- ozim 3y ago
  You know - no companies - no employees- no taxes. It is better to get 20% of taxes than 0% and have people move out to places where jobs are.
  - cyanydeez 3y ago
    In the Texas case, they make no property taxes.
    - thebradbain 3y ago
      ^Texas has property tax on individuals and businesses (in fact it’s one of the highest in the nation) Texas does not have income tax
notjoemama 3y ago
So are COLA raises that don’t match actual inflation. Too many and your experienced staff are forced to get a new job salary bump to get back to the buying power you hired them at.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  My job directly interfaces with a client that directly sets budgets adjusted for inflation and I directly pointed this out to my boss and they still ignored local inflation. Most companies are on cruise control and don't care.
  - shostack 3y ago
    Because they don't need to pay based on inflation they need to pay based on the cost of labor.
- kagakuninja 3y ago
  You guys get raises?
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    You didn’t get the 0.75% adjustment last year? ;)
  - InfamousRece 3y ago
    My last raise was before the pandemic.
AussieWog93 3y ago
I think magical thinking gets too bad a rap these days. When systems get complex enough, data or logic driven decisions aren't really any more reliable than gut feeling. They're just easier to rationalise. Either this will work, and the companies that resisted Return To Office will be at a competitive disadvantage, or it won't and the companies who advocated for Return to Office will be behind. Either way, Darwin will punish whoever is wrong.
- acchow 3y ago
  > Either this will work, and the companies that resisted Return To Office will be at a competitive disadvantage, or it won't and the companies who advocated for Return to Office will be behind. Only if there is a competitor making a different choice. This is why I believe RTO decisions will vary by market, as all competitors will eventually follow the efficient choice for their market.
- barryrandall 3y ago
  Another possibility is that it doesn't matter, and we're only talking about it because someone thinks they can get a few more clicks out of the story.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  Magical thinking is a manifestation of the mind's desire for clarity beyond its reach. Instead, we should become comfortable with not knowing. That's the path of honest humility. Not all realities can be knowable and we should accept it rather than making up a false reality to make us feel more comfortable. We're better than that.
  - swexbe 3y ago
    Sure, but sometimes you have to make a decision.
- Qem 3y ago
  Unless there are network effects involved, and return to office works or not for a particular firm depending on if most other firms returned or not. For example, if firm A forced return, but everybody else not, it is labeled a shitty employer, and gets worse workers on average. If everybody else returns as well, at least it's not left behind on this metric.
turtlebits 3y ago
Getting tired of the RTO argument. It's not about productivity. Bottom line is that some companies/management aren't comfortable with remote work, even if it comes with an efficiency gains/cost savings. Maybe it sounds stupid, but it's their decision to make.
- Sindisil 3y ago
  Half their decision. Workers can obviously decide to make their own decisions WRT RTO if their employer demands it vs seeking new employment.
krashidov 3y ago
Serious question - why have we acknowledged that remote schools are bad but remote work is good. I know there are some major differences between school and work but communication and sharing knowledge is fundamental to both. What am I missing here ?
- FormerBandmate 3y ago
  Remote work is better for a certain type of worker who has a lot of time to post, so they post a lot about how bad it is. It is worse for another type of worker who’s more likely to make decisions about work from home
  - cableshaft 3y ago
    When I worked exclusively in the office, I posted online just as much as I do now. Perhaps more, as I was younger with less responsibilities. I highly doubt this has any significant effect on the distribution of pro WFH versus pro RTO posts. And if you're really that busy in the office (there has been maybe 2 years in my entire career when that was true, and that was while working at a gaming app startup as lead developer with only two developers on the team) that you have no time to post anything, you can always post before or after work, which I did.
- barbazoo 3y ago
  children != adults
  - krashidov 3y ago
    colleges have all gone back to in person. When they were remote, students were livid about the fact that they were being charged the same amount for remote learning as in person learning
    - tayo42 3y ago
      Students get outraged about stuff all the time. I could understand feeling like part of your tuition is paying for access to stuff on campus and not getting those things though.
3seashells 3y ago
Well so working in office is like a performance improvement plan now?
xinayder 3y ago
We received confirmation of rumors at my company that they are pushing for a mandatory 50% RTO on a week. This came after weeks of the company publishing news, asking for feedback, about our current hybrid working scheme, where most people replied they only go to the office to socialize and it's not a bad thing. Then they posted an announcement that they would try to encourage people to socialize more often at the office. The first problem? Our office barely has enough space to fit 50% of our workforce (about 2000 employees). And then now I'm being forced to return to the office. I spoke to some colleagues that we've seen how this was received in big-tech companies. Meta, Google, all lost key figures that decided to quit after RTO was forced on them. The same will happen with my company, very important seniors will leave and now we'll be on a tech debt and forced to find a replacement for those key figures. Now, this decision wouldn't affect me either way because I go to the office every day. But I go to the office because I like it, because it's a fun environment, I like sitting next to my teammates and other colleagues, talking, going out together for lunch, socializing. The moment I am forced to come to the office to meet some stupid metric and help higher management avoid taxes and get a big paycheck which won't even be shared with the other employees (like me), I will stop going to the office. Because it won't be fun anymore. And that's where I ask, is higher management even fulfilling the stupid metric they are forcing on their employees? As the article said, it's about choice. It doesn't mean employers can force a RTO only because their employees are happy with the hybrid work scheme and turn out to go to the office 5 days a week. They are happy about having a choice.
jl2718 3y ago
Remote work is more productive. Office work is more valuable. I’ll explain. Remote management is a lot more one-way and top-down tasking. It’s possible, but very hard to do it any other way. In-person teams do not require explicit tasking, and they will find consensus on good and bad directions much faster, but the actual work goes slowly. “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” You can’t have both. Measuring productivity of individual in-person employees will fail, and measuring value output of remote teams will also fail.
phendrenad2 3y ago
Business types will always choose an extreme but simple action over hard but targeted actions. RTO won't fix a bad process. You need to fix your process. Only then will RTO become valuable.
olliej 3y ago
my days in the office are hands down the least productive. First off there’s 3+ hours of driving now - none of which is compensated - so, the frequent interruptions because the pro office folk consider the office a place to socialize, and the less pleasant working environment. The driving is also incredibly interruptive as now it doesn’t matter if I’m in the flow/mid problem, I have specific times I have to hit the road by or I add another hour to my drive. All because a bunch of people think their desire to socialize and/or see their ability to control the plebs is more important than getting work done.

97 points by pg_1234 3y ago

https://archive.ph/mfZeZ https://archive.ph/mfZeZ

The coordinated RTO push is about tax breaks that these companies receive for bringing workers into the city. Just another way for the wealthy to not pay their fair share of taxes on the backs of the workers who use their own time and money commuting. >New Jersey and Texas are states that stand out for spelling out exactly how often employees must work from the office to qualify for tax breaks. Before the pandemic, several New Jersey tax programs required workers to show up at least 80% of the time, and one Texas program set the threshold at 50%. >Provisions like these were designed to ensure that the jobs boosted local revenue from income, sales and property taxes, and bolstered downtown economies. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-threat-to-work-from-home-tax-breaks https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-t...

ozim 3y ago
You know - no companies - no employees- no taxes. It is better to get 20% of taxes than 0% and have people move out to places where jobs are.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  In the Texas case, they make no property taxes.
  - thebradbain 3y ago
    ^Texas has property tax on individuals and businesses (in fact it’s one of the highest in the nation) Texas does not have income tax

notjoemama 3y ago

So are COLA raises that don’t match actual inflation. Too many and your experienced staff are forced to get a new job salary bump to get back to the buying power you hired them at.

cyanydeez 3y ago
My job directly interfaces with a client that directly sets budgets adjusted for inflation and I directly pointed this out to my boss and they still ignored local inflation. Most companies are on cruise control and don't care.
- shostack 3y ago
  Because they don't need to pay based on inflation they need to pay based on the cost of labor.
kagakuninja 3y ago
You guys get raises?
- barbazoo 3y ago
  You didn’t get the 0.75% adjustment last year? ;)
- InfamousRece 3y ago
  My last raise was before the pandemic.

AussieWog93 3y ago

I think magical thinking gets too bad a rap these days. When systems get complex enough, data or logic driven decisions aren't really any more reliable than gut feeling. They're just easier to rationalise. Either this will work, and the companies that resisted Return To Office will be at a competitive disadvantage, or it won't and the companies who advocated for Return to Office will be behind. Either way, Darwin will punish whoever is wrong.

acchow 3y ago
> Either this will work, and the companies that resisted Return To Office will be at a competitive disadvantage, or it won't and the companies who advocated for Return to Office will be behind. Only if there is a competitor making a different choice. This is why I believe RTO decisions will vary by market, as all competitors will eventually follow the efficient choice for their market.
barryrandall 3y ago
Another possibility is that it doesn't matter, and we're only talking about it because someone thinks they can get a few more clicks out of the story.
kelseyfrog 3y ago
Magical thinking is a manifestation of the mind's desire for clarity beyond its reach. Instead, we should become comfortable with not knowing. That's the path of honest humility. Not all realities can be knowable and we should accept it rather than making up a false reality to make us feel more comfortable. We're better than that.
- swexbe 3y ago
  Sure, but sometimes you have to make a decision.
Qem 3y ago
Unless there are network effects involved, and return to office works or not for a particular firm depending on if most other firms returned or not. For example, if firm A forced return, but everybody else not, it is labeled a shitty employer, and gets worse workers on average. If everybody else returns as well, at least it's not left behind on this metric.

turtlebits 3y ago

Getting tired of the RTO argument. It's not about productivity. Bottom line is that some companies/management aren't comfortable with remote work, even if it comes with an efficiency gains/cost savings. Maybe it sounds stupid, but it's their decision to make.

Sindisil 3y ago
Half their decision. Workers can obviously decide to make their own decisions WRT RTO if their employer demands it vs seeking new employment.

krashidov 3y ago

Serious question - why have we acknowledged that remote schools are bad but remote work is good. I know there are some major differences between school and work but communication and sharing knowledge is fundamental to both. What am I missing here ?

FormerBandmate 3y ago
Remote work is better for a certain type of worker who has a lot of time to post, so they post a lot about how bad it is. It is worse for another type of worker who’s more likely to make decisions about work from home
- cableshaft 3y ago
  When I worked exclusively in the office, I posted online just as much as I do now. Perhaps more, as I was younger with less responsibilities. I highly doubt this has any significant effect on the distribution of pro WFH versus pro RTO posts. And if you're really that busy in the office (there has been maybe 2 years in my entire career when that was true, and that was while working at a gaming app startup as lead developer with only two developers on the team) that you have no time to post anything, you can always post before or after work, which I did.
barbazoo 3y ago
children != adults
- krashidov 3y ago
  colleges have all gone back to in person. When they were remote, students were livid about the fact that they were being charged the same amount for remote learning as in person learning
  - tayo42 3y ago
    Students get outraged about stuff all the time. I could understand feeling like part of your tuition is paying for access to stuff on campus and not getting those things though.

3seashells 3y ago

Well so working in office is like a performance improvement plan now?

xinayder 3y ago

We received confirmation of rumors at my company that they are pushing for a mandatory 50% RTO on a week. This came after weeks of the company publishing news, asking for feedback, about our current hybrid working scheme, where most people replied they only go to the office to socialize and it's not a bad thing. Then they posted an announcement that they would try to encourage people to socialize more often at the office. The first problem? Our office barely has enough space to fit 50% of our workforce (about 2000 employees). And then now I'm being forced to return to the office. I spoke to some colleagues that we've seen how this was received in big-tech companies. Meta, Google, all lost key figures that decided to quit after RTO was forced on them. The same will happen with my company, very important seniors will leave and now we'll be on a tech debt and forced to find a replacement for those key figures. Now, this decision wouldn't affect me either way because I go to the office every day. But I go to the office because I like it, because it's a fun environment, I like sitting next to my teammates and other colleagues, talking, going out together for lunch, socializing. The moment I am forced to come to the office to meet some stupid metric and help higher management avoid taxes and get a big paycheck which won't even be shared with the other employees (like me), I will stop going to the office. Because it won't be fun anymore. And that's where I ask, is higher management even fulfilling the stupid metric they are forcing on their employees? As the article said, it's about choice. It doesn't mean employers can force a RTO only because their employees are happy with the hybrid work scheme and turn out to go to the office 5 days a week. They are happy about having a choice.

jl2718 3y ago

Remote work is more productive. Office work is more valuable. I’ll explain. Remote management is a lot more one-way and top-down tasking. It’s possible, but very hard to do it any other way. In-person teams do not require explicit tasking, and they will find consensus on good and bad directions much faster, but the actual work goes slowly. “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” You can’t have both. Measuring productivity of individual in-person employees will fail, and measuring value output of remote teams will also fail.

phendrenad2 3y ago

Business types will always choose an extreme but simple action over hard but targeted actions. RTO won't fix a bad process. You need to fix your process. Only then will RTO become valuable.

olliej 3y ago

my days in the office are hands down the least productive. First off there’s 3+ hours of driving now - none of which is compensated - so, the frequent interruptions because the pro office folk consider the office a place to socialize, and the less pleasant working environment. The driving is also incredibly interruptive as now it doesn’t matter if I’m in the flow/mid problem, I have specific times I have to hit the road by or I add another hour to my drive. All because a bunch of people think their desire to socialize and/or see their ability to control the plebs is more important than getting work done.