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> It's been part of human behavior across all cultures since history. Men are the workers and women are the care givers and home makers. The behavior is seen so

by hnbad 3y ago

> It's been part of human behavior across all cultures since history. Men are the workers and women are the care givers and home makers. The behavior is seen so consistently across cultures that it's safe to say it's more then social conditioning. It's biological. Except that's not true, is it? It's somewhat consistent "across cultures" today, as are many things that are barely decades or centuries old. If you look at isolated peoples that are likely closer to "our biology", you see something very different. This makes sense if you consider that the atomic family is a fairly recent phenomenon. Even agrarian societies did not necessarily have a division of labor across the gender binary: harvest meant everyone had to help, including children. Even the idea of blood kinship breaks down in agrarian Europe with farmhands being part of the family "unit" in a way more resembling adoption than employment. > If the woman demands to have the same pay and rank as the hard working guy who works 5 days a week because she spent a lot of time caring for some kid that has nothing to do with my business, how is that fair to me? I don't know what strawman you're trying to construct here but I never said someone working 4 days a week is entitled to the same pay as someone working 5 days a week if their contribution is entirely measured in hours. In fact I said nothing about pay or social welfare at all. I do think it's funny you seem to value "more hours worked" as a measure of entitlement on a website that's literally all about "working smarter not harder"(what did you think a "hack" is?) but it sounds like you're more invested in evopysch nonsense and 2010s era pay gap discourse so I don't see any point in continuing this conversation.

corethree 3y ago
>I do think it's funny you seem to value "more hours worked" as a measure of entitlement on a website that's literally all about "working smarter not harder"(what did you think a "hack" is?) but it sounds like you're more invested in evopysch nonsense and 2010s era pay gap discourse so I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. You can't quantify working smarter. It's a vague term. What we do know, (and you know this as well you're just not thinking critically) is that over a large population those that generally work more hours get more done and do better across the board. That's a statistical and data driven metric. Not some hand wavy "work smarter" bullshit. What are you implying? that women are smarter than men so of course if they put less hours in their smartness suddenly makes up for the stupidity that is men? Come on. This isn't a strawman, it's called common sense. >Except that's not true, is it? You ask, so I answer: It is true. There are enough exceptions that someone can construct a counter argument/research paper via miscellaneous examples but the general majority across current cultures and past cultures that men take on the bread winner role.
- hnbad 3y ago
  > Not some hand wavy "work smarter" bullshit. If you're so violently opposed to the notion that hours spent "butt in seat" is a good metric for entitlement to compensation, why exactly are we having this conversation on HN? > What we do know, (and you know this as well you're just not thinking critically) is that over a large population those that generally work more hours get more done and do better across the board. Interestingly there are studies demonstrating that the absolute loss of productivity from 4 day weeks compared to 5 day weeks is negligible in most jobs. Even for 25 hour weeks (i.e. 5 hour days) the absolute loss of productivity is not even remotely proportional to the difference in hours. There have even been examples of one full time job being split into two part time jobs resulting in greater productivity. Turns out most jobs (and especially knowledge work or creative work) don't function like conveyor belt manufacturing. > This isn't a strawman, it's called common sense. I'm starting to believe you don't know what either of these two things mean given that those two things aren't mutually exclusive nor do they apply to the same thing. Also common sense is a heuristic, not an empirical source. It's just a fancy way of saying "gut feeling" rather than looking at actual research. > What are you implying? that women are smarter than men so of course if they put less hours in their smartness suddenly makes up for the stupidity that is men? Come on. Again your unstated prejudices are showing. And again I have to remind you that at no point did I say two people working doing the same work for different amounts of hours should be paid the same wage. This is your strawman you seem to want to attack, not something I said. > There are enough exceptions that someone can construct a counter argument/research paper via miscellaneous examples but the general majority across current cultures and past cultures that men take on the bread winner role. Because god forbid someone debunks the renaissance era myth of the hunter-gatherer division of labor, I guess, despite zero archeological evidence for it and plenty of counter-evidence from looking at isolated indigeneous communities still in existence at the time. I guess it's just "common sense" that things have always been as they are and there's no such thing as a cultural bias that may inform our interpretation of data about the past, especially during the early stages of modern science when we tried to interpret the past through the lens of understanding ourselves to be at the pinnacle of human evolution. Sorry, you're of course right. Historical studies and archeology never evolved past 19th century navel-gazing and if it feels true to you that is the absolute standard for empirical evidence we should all adhere to. Men always won the bread, whatever that means for a pre-agrarian society. One man, one woman, barefoot and pregnant at the stove as god intended. All of history just incidentally happens to reflect the cultural mores of early modern European aristocracy that rediscovered it. Sorry, I really have to tap out now. You've won this debate with facts and logic.

by hnbad 3y ago

corethree 3y ago

>I do think it's funny you seem to value "more hours worked" as a measure of entitlement on a website that's literally all about "working smarter not harder"(what did you think a "hack" is?) but it sounds like you're more invested in evopysch nonsense and 2010s era pay gap discourse so I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. You can't quantify working smarter. It's a vague term. What we do know, (and you know this as well you're just not thinking critically) is that over a large population those that generally work more hours get more done and do better across the board. That's a statistical and data driven metric. Not some hand wavy "work smarter" bullshit. What are you implying? that women are smarter than men so of course if they put less hours in their smartness suddenly makes up for the stupidity that is men? Come on. This isn't a strawman, it's called common sense. >Except that's not true, is it? You ask, so I answer: It is true. There are enough exceptions that someone can construct a counter argument/research paper via miscellaneous examples but the general majority across current cultures and past cultures that men take on the bread winner role.

hnbad 3y ago
> Not some hand wavy "work smarter" bullshit. If you're so violently opposed to the notion that hours spent "butt in seat" is a good metric for entitlement to compensation, why exactly are we having this conversation on HN? > What we do know, (and you know this as well you're just not thinking critically) is that over a large population those that generally work more hours get more done and do better across the board. Interestingly there are studies demonstrating that the absolute loss of productivity from 4 day weeks compared to 5 day weeks is negligible in most jobs. Even for 25 hour weeks (i.e. 5 hour days) the absolute loss of productivity is not even remotely proportional to the difference in hours. There have even been examples of one full time job being split into two part time jobs resulting in greater productivity. Turns out most jobs (and especially knowledge work or creative work) don't function like conveyor belt manufacturing. > This isn't a strawman, it's called common sense. I'm starting to believe you don't know what either of these two things mean given that those two things aren't mutually exclusive nor do they apply to the same thing. Also common sense is a heuristic, not an empirical source. It's just a fancy way of saying "gut feeling" rather than looking at actual research. > What are you implying? that women are smarter than men so of course if they put less hours in their smartness suddenly makes up for the stupidity that is men? Come on. Again your unstated prejudices are showing. And again I have to remind you that at no point did I say two people working doing the same work for different amounts of hours should be paid the same wage. This is your strawman you seem to want to attack, not something I said. > There are enough exceptions that someone can construct a counter argument/research paper via miscellaneous examples but the general majority across current cultures and past cultures that men take on the bread winner role. Because god forbid someone debunks the renaissance era myth of the hunter-gatherer division of labor, I guess, despite zero archeological evidence for it and plenty of counter-evidence from looking at isolated indigeneous communities still in existence at the time. I guess it's just "common sense" that things have always been as they are and there's no such thing as a cultural bias that may inform our interpretation of data about the past, especially during the early stages of modern science when we tried to interpret the past through the lens of understanding ourselves to be at the pinnacle of human evolution. Sorry, you're of course right. Historical studies and archeology never evolved past 19th century navel-gazing and if it feels true to you that is the absolute standard for empirical evidence we should all adhere to. Men always won the bread, whatever that means for a pre-agrarian society. One man, one woman, barefoot and pregnant at the stove as god intended. All of history just incidentally happens to reflect the cultural mores of early modern European aristocracy that rediscovered it. Sorry, I really have to tap out now. You've won this debate with facts and logic.