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Thanks for your response. I am an arm-chair observer; I can only make broad-ranging assumptions. You know best. > That means the people who were there before g

Thanks for your response. I am an arm-chair observer; I can only make broad-ranging assumptions. You know best. > That means the people who were there before got full citizenship and rights. Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one example). > ...how occupying another people would destroy the country from within. Speaking as a non-Israeli, the only destruction I see is that of the Palestinians. tbh, the Oslo Accords and the Mandate is destroying Palestinians more than it is destroying the idea of Zion... so if I was a Zionist, I'd say things are working as planned. > That would completely offset the balance of power in the country. It's just a fucked up scenario. To me, the constant oppression from one side and the retaliatory and heinous struggle from the other side is even more fucked up. There must be a path to assimilation, because how long does Israel otherwise continue to supress 5 million strong populace without having an eventual intention of removing them for their lands/islands (or worse, this Earth)? Painting such broad strokes (all Palestinians want is to exterminate Jews) is part of the problem (may be the Gazan kids, if given a choice, would aspire to study at Technion, participate in the booming Israeli cybersecurity scene in Herzlia... over being under constant surveillance of Israeli drones and pray that autonomous weapons don't misfire every time they're at a crossing). > They did that in the past. In 1973 they nearly wiped out Israel and no one sent troops... Imagine countries cutting off oil to the west if they help Israel... In all honesty, most Arab countries that matter have been run in to the ground by Dictators (Egypt) or solely serve their Emirs (UAE, Saudia, Qatar). Some only have a puppet military (Kuwait, Bahrain). I don't expect it to happen again. The wars in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan reaffirmed that there's no such thing as ummah, that these multiple countries are not a single military bloc. Hamas should know that no one's coming for them when US gets involved (which it did, as expected): and especially after what happened in 2014. > It's hard to think about the human side. True. Entire generations lost to this. Like the Atheist he was, Moshe Dayan thought collective punishment was an effective way to tame the Fidayeen (terrorists, as one might call them today), and the Israelis, it seems, have never come out of that mode, but in fact have doubled down on it. And the cycle keeps repeating. The nakba, the Oslo Accords, the Gazan disengagement didn't break it. If it continues, there's never going to come a time this human side emerges, on either side of the fence, until there's fence no more (or no Palestines any more). I just happen to read first-hand account of an Afghani-British author traveling around in Gaza in 2008 (https://twitter.com/nadeneghouri/status/1713120289213845671 https://twitter.com/nadeneghouri/status/1713120289213845671), and she says PTSD, low life expectancy, and poverty is rife through the populace. They deserve better than this (unless of course one thinks that Nadene is spreading propaganda for Hamas). > Right now the media is pumping out every demonstration and every anti-semantic sentiment, this creates a "we don't have anywhere else to go" mentality. Consent must be manufactured some how. All too predictable, but disheartening to see many of my heroes go genocidal on (tech) twitter. As a Shia' (Palestine is Sunni), I couldn't hold my tears reading the tweets they liked or reposted. As an aside, some of these same folks are working towards building an AGI. > I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles... Why do you say so? Or, you mean the far-right will gather more support? > 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years... Sucks for the Gazans, most of whom are kids (a million of them displaced in a week already), and if Hamas proactively gives up arms without getting anything substantial in return (not mockery-making lip-service like the Accords; but something like ending apartheid and going back to the 1948/67 borders or grant the right to citizenship). > Israel is a liberal democracy. We have things such as gay rights, women's rights, etc. It is liberal except for when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians, it'd seem? I think this is a secondary concern, because it doesn't excuse the existence of an apartheid state in its lieu. Almost as if Israel wants to have the cake and eat it too. > Even with our religious factions this is sometimes a problem. Palestinians or not, as has happened with other Islamic states, in the long run, I can see Israel struggling to hold on to its liberal values for this very reason. I am not a prophet, but there exist folks who believe in such prophecies. > It will send us back to a point we can't get beyond. I agree it is a pandora's box, but 75 years of hurt must be enough to try and open it? EU emerged from a heinous war in less than 50 years by tearing down borders. If I was an Israeli, and I see that Palestine will always be at a disadvantage, I would rather we continued to invest in lasers, and robots, and other utopian defense systems to permanently trap these people over trusting them. And that sucks, but I guess it keeps the Holy Land and its LGBTQ+ supporting democracy mostly "untouched", for the time being. Such an unimaginable tragedy, this.

invalidname 3y ago
> Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one example). Yes. On the other hand there's the story of the residence of Haifa where the local Jews begged the local Arabs to stay. To this day it's an integrated city. I was mostly talking about the annexation of the territories. Israel did annex the Golan Heights after the 67 war since its population is relatively small. > Speaking as a non-Israeli, the only destruction I see is that of the Palestinians. tbh, the Oslo Accords and the Mandate is destroying Palestinians more than it is destroying the idea of Zion... so if I was a Zionist, I'd say things are working as planned. I think the original Oslo accord was planned to work for both sides. What exists now is a corruption of the original idea meant to "keep the peace". > To me, the constant oppression from one side and the retaliatory and heinous struggle from the other side is even more fucked up. I agree and many of the Palestinians I know are in the tech industry. I think education and a booming middle class will help. Unfortunately, as they are now this is too far off. In terms of values the median Palestinian is FAR more religious and conservative. There's a lot of seriously crazy people there. That's the main reason Egypt refuses to let anyone in. It isn't something that can be realistically assimilated. > > I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles... > Why do you say so? Or, you mean the far-right will gather more support? The prime minister has been under indictment for a while now. He is a terrible demagogue. The worst kind. He used the extreme far right to take over the government and is slowly dismantling the checks and balances over the democracy. This caught him in the middle of that. I do believe he actually planned for this to happen, he just didn't realize how terrible it would be. Typically, right-wing leaders use strife to strengthen their position and attack dissent. It's already something his people are doing by blaming the people who demonstrated against him, claiming we weakened the country... I think he will assume emergency powers and will use them to circumvent democracy. There are already signs e.g. a recent attempt to curtail free speech etc. > > 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years... > Sucks for the Gazans, most of whom are kids Yes. One positive note that came out the other day was that the military showed off its situation room where they showed a system that helps them track the population via cell phone broadcasts. Not accurate but that gives them a sense of where the population is. They apparently use this to aim bombings into areas that aren't populated. It's still horrible, but at least some effort is going into minimizing civilian impact. > It is liberal except for when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians, it'd seem? The Palestinians aren't a part of Israel. So yes. > Almost as if Israel wants to have the cake and eat it too. This is the exact problem. Israeli governments wanted the control but didn't want the annexation which would reduce the Jewish majority. To be fair, it's hard to know what needs to be done here. There was no prior country that can be rebuilt. Since Arafat there has been no singular leader who can demonstrate control/unity. Even he was pretty problematic. Most Israelis look at this as: we tried to give them a country and they kept sending suicide bombers/rockets. This is a bit distorted since it looks at the Palestinian people as a single mass. The problem is their lack of leadership. The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership. > EU emerged from a heinous war in less than 50 years by tearing down borders. The differences between the countries in the EU are relatively small. They are all of the same religion and were all liberal democracies before seeking unity. I don't think we can culturally assimilate. Even within the current Arab population in Israel we see things like violence towards women (honor killings) etc. It might go away as our society becomes more homogeneous but it will take a generational shift. > I see that Palestine will always be at a disadvantage I think the right thing is separate states. Historically, forcing unification created strife and violence. But I do think Israel has a duty and an interest in the success of the Palestinian people. If they will have a thriving middle class and good education they will be less likely to seek violence. I hope the US will demand something like the Marshal plan, to rebuild Gaza but also help structure it. I don't know if this will work though. They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.

invalidname 3y ago

> Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one example). Yes. On the other hand there's the story of the residence of Haifa where the local Jews begged the local Arabs to stay. To this day it's an integrated city. I was mostly talking about the annexation of the territories. Israel did annex the Golan Heights after the 67 war since its population is relatively small. > Speaking as a non-Israeli, the only destruction I see is that of the Palestinians. tbh, the Oslo Accords and the Mandate is destroying Palestinians more than it is destroying the idea of Zion... so if I was a Zionist, I'd say things are working as planned. I think the original Oslo accord was planned to work for both sides. What exists now is a corruption of the original idea meant to "keep the peace". > To me, the constant oppression from one side and the retaliatory and heinous struggle from the other side is even more fucked up. I agree and many of the Palestinians I know are in the tech industry. I think education and a booming middle class will help. Unfortunately, as they are now this is too far off. In terms of values the median Palestinian is FAR more religious and conservative. There's a lot of seriously crazy people there. That's the main reason Egypt refuses to let anyone in. It isn't something that can be realistically assimilated. > > I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles... > Why do you say so? Or, you mean the far-right will gather more support? The prime minister has been under indictment for a while now. He is a terrible demagogue. The worst kind. He used the extreme far right to take over the government and is slowly dismantling the checks and balances over the democracy. This caught him in the middle of that. I do believe he actually planned for this to happen, he just didn't realize how terrible it would be. Typically, right-wing leaders use strife to strengthen their position and attack dissent. It's already something his people are doing by blaming the people who demonstrated against him, claiming we weakened the country... I think he will assume emergency powers and will use them to circumvent democracy. There are already signs e.g. a recent attempt to curtail free speech etc. > > 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years... > Sucks for the Gazans, most of whom are kids Yes. One positive note that came out the other day was that the military showed off its situation room where they showed a system that helps them track the population via cell phone broadcasts. Not accurate but that gives them a sense of where the population is. They apparently use this to aim bombings into areas that aren't populated. It's still horrible, but at least some effort is going into minimizing civilian impact. > It is liberal except for when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians, it'd seem? The Palestinians aren't a part of Israel. So yes. > Almost as if Israel wants to have the cake and eat it too. This is the exact problem. Israeli governments wanted the control but didn't want the annexation which would reduce the Jewish majority. To be fair, it's hard to know what needs to be done here. There was no prior country that can be rebuilt. Since Arafat there has been no singular leader who can demonstrate control/unity. Even he was pretty problematic. Most Israelis look at this as: we tried to give them a country and they kept sending suicide bombers/rockets. This is a bit distorted since it looks at the Palestinian people as a single mass. The problem is their lack of leadership. The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership. > EU emerged from a heinous war in less than 50 years by tearing down borders. The differences between the countries in the EU are relatively small. They are all of the same religion and were all liberal democracies before seeking unity. I don't think we can culturally assimilate. Even within the current Arab population in Israel we see things like violence towards women (honor killings) etc. It might go away as our society becomes more homogeneous but it will take a generational shift. > I see that Palestine will always be at a disadvantage I think the right thing is separate states. Historically, forcing unification created strife and violence. But I do think Israel has a duty and an interest in the success of the Palestinian people. If they will have a thriving middle class and good education they will be less likely to seek violence. I hope the US will demand something like the Marshal plan, to rebuild Gaza but also help structure it. I don't know if this will work though. They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.