5 ms·

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

wiseowise 3y ago
> F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc. People can move in from other countries, you know.
- Lacerda69 3y ago
  and they would also benefit from the social net the state provides plus everything else taxes pay for, so your point is what exactly?
- LeanderK 3y ago
  > People can move in from other countries, you know. You can also move away from germany. But you can't move to germany and avoid taxes while creating a company here (OP was literally: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany)
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    I’m not saying that you should avoid taxes.
throwaway60722 3y ago
There are states with much lower taxes that also pay for education. Why should Germans pay so much? There are people who didn't go to university doing business too.
- slow_typist 3y ago
  In the eighties, income tax in Germany could go up to 56%. It is much lower know. Taxes are somewhat relative in space and time.
  - throwaway60722 3y ago
    Just over the border is a country with effective income tax for self-employed businessmen around 5-15%.
    - Luc 3y ago
      Why not name the country?
      - mbrain 3y ago
        I would guess Poland
      - Lionga 3y ago
        There are many, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Andorra to name a few
      - throwaway60722 3y ago
        There are not so many options you couldn't just check yourself... But to answer your question - Poland and Czech Republic.
        Luc 3y ago
        Well I could but it would take a while, no other country in Europe has as many neighbours as Germany. Thanks for replying.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      I have been self-employed under a Polish business (działalność gospodarcza) for the last few years. With income tax plus mandatory pension and health contributions, over a third of my income goes to taxes or other mandatory fees (like the requirement to have a licensed accountant keep your books). It really isn’t much different than most other EU countries. And of course one pays a comparable VAT on shopping. Often in Poland people say “Why are you running your business here? Base it in Czech Republic!” The grass always is greener on the other side.
- LeanderK 3y ago
  you are not forced to live and do business here. Feel free to move to another country if you don't like the taxes. But you can't just avoid the taxes because you feel like it. I don't care how much you would loose by not avoiding taxes. Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know. They can't avoid paying taxes on their car through a foreign holding structure. It's a slap on their face because you feel like you should have more.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know. Yes, everyone except German businesses dealing in cash only who don't issue receipts, and the likes of Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Airbus, NXP, IKEA, ST etc. and all these conglomerate with complex tax avoidance schemes spread across Netherlands, Ireland, Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Switzerland and some Caribbean islands who neither fully belonging to the British or Dutch crowns nor are fully independent nations, but some fuzzy situation in between. You see, once we let so many players legally avoid paying taxes in broad daylight, it's difficult to uphold the social contract that "we should all pay taxes" as then it turns into a crabs in a bucket situation where the veil is lifted and the Average Joe sees through the cash-grab scam that the tax system is on the working class, and will do everything in his power to avoid paying taxes as well. If you want people to respect the social contract of the welfare state, we need to hold everyone accountable to it with no exceptions, not just the poor suckers who have no means of dodging it or fighting back, while the super wealthy are laughing all the way to the bank.
dappermanneke 3y ago
when you start working you will understand
nforgerit 3y ago
German here. You mean the German education system that has been going down the last 2-3 decades? Are you even aware that the German tax system is redirecting tax income from smaller companies to richer ones (e.g. if they soon introduce "reduced electricity prices" for some heavy industry companies)? Are you aware that the system taxes employees relatively high and companies and capital income pretty low with thousands of tax exempts? Are you aware that government service cost are skyrocketing because they didn't reform anything in the recent 2 decades? Are you aware they poured ~4bn EUR into "digitization" of government services and nothing's working? The whole system has been broken by corporate lobbies and unethical politicians who just wanted to be voted for. Now tell me about the great social system in Germany that is worth all the tax money.
- mbrain 3y ago
  non-German living in Germany, I couldn't agree more. When I complain about this, Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home'.
  - nforgerit 3y ago
    Ha, that's a very typical answer my compatriots would give. What Germans lack in competence they make up with arrogance. That just seems to be our thing.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home' "You're country is corrupt as hell." Eastern Europeans: "We know" Germans : "Then go back to your country" OR "Impossible, we're Europe's number one economy!!!11one"
- gv83 3y ago
  And you have not seen Italy!
- LeanderK 3y ago
  I am sorry but you can not work in the company or build a company in the country and avoid taxes. Your taxes go directly into these things. All the rest of the society has to pay taxes, they can't avoid taxes on their car via an elaborate foreign holding structure. The only way to change it to your liking is via politics, or build it in a different country respecting their rules. Get involved in local politics, especially the state of the school system and many other things are decided on a very low level that can be directly influenced by your district. Everyone contributes and we get back free education (our universities are still good btw. and for certain topics really good) and from what I hear about schools from parents they still work, even with expanded care times. Bürgergeld exists if you really hit a rough spot. Super cheap public transit (50€ per month!) and autobahn is still existing. You say that what Germans lack in competence they make up with arrogance, but it's really to complain about everything and be super pessimistic all the time. You can not just choose to avoid taxes, that's just highly unethical and unfair to everyone who's paying their share and super selfish. I stand by my word: F*k you if you avoid taxes

wiseowise 3y ago

> F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc. People can move in from other countries, you know.

Lacerda69 3y ago
and they would also benefit from the social net the state provides plus everything else taxes pay for, so your point is what exactly?
LeanderK 3y ago
> People can move in from other countries, you know. You can also move away from germany. But you can't move to germany and avoid taxes while creating a company here (OP was literally: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany)
- wiseowise 3y ago
  I’m not saying that you should avoid taxes.

throwaway60722 3y ago

There are states with much lower taxes that also pay for education. Why should Germans pay so much? There are people who didn't go to university doing business too.

slow_typist 3y ago
In the eighties, income tax in Germany could go up to 56%. It is much lower know. Taxes are somewhat relative in space and time.
- throwaway60722 3y ago
  Just over the border is a country with effective income tax for self-employed businessmen around 5-15%.
  - Luc 3y ago
    Why not name the country?
    - mbrain 3y ago
      I would guess Poland
    - Lionga 3y ago
      There are many, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Andorra to name a few
    - throwaway60722 3y ago
      There are not so many options you couldn't just check yourself... But to answer your question - Poland and Czech Republic.
      - Luc 3y ago
        Well I could but it would take a while, no other country in Europe has as many neighbours as Germany. Thanks for replying.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    I have been self-employed under a Polish business (działalność gospodarcza) for the last few years. With income tax plus mandatory pension and health contributions, over a third of my income goes to taxes or other mandatory fees (like the requirement to have a licensed accountant keep your books). It really isn’t much different than most other EU countries. And of course one pays a comparable VAT on shopping. Often in Poland people say “Why are you running your business here? Base it in Czech Republic!” The grass always is greener on the other side.
LeanderK 3y ago
you are not forced to live and do business here. Feel free to move to another country if you don't like the taxes. But you can't just avoid the taxes because you feel like it. I don't care how much you would loose by not avoiding taxes. Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know. They can't avoid paying taxes on their car through a foreign holding structure. It's a slap on their face because you feel like you should have more.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know. Yes, everyone except German businesses dealing in cash only who don't issue receipts, and the likes of Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Airbus, NXP, IKEA, ST etc. and all these conglomerate with complex tax avoidance schemes spread across Netherlands, Ireland, Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Switzerland and some Caribbean islands who neither fully belonging to the British or Dutch crowns nor are fully independent nations, but some fuzzy situation in between. You see, once we let so many players legally avoid paying taxes in broad daylight, it's difficult to uphold the social contract that "we should all pay taxes" as then it turns into a crabs in a bucket situation where the veil is lifted and the Average Joe sees through the cash-grab scam that the tax system is on the working class, and will do everything in his power to avoid paying taxes as well. If you want people to respect the social contract of the welfare state, we need to hold everyone accountable to it with no exceptions, not just the poor suckers who have no means of dodging it or fighting back, while the super wealthy are laughing all the way to the bank.

dappermanneke 3y ago

when you start working you will understand

nforgerit 3y ago

German here. You mean the German education system that has been going down the last 2-3 decades? Are you even aware that the German tax system is redirecting tax income from smaller companies to richer ones (e.g. if they soon introduce "reduced electricity prices" for some heavy industry companies)? Are you aware that the system taxes employees relatively high and companies and capital income pretty low with thousands of tax exempts? Are you aware that government service cost are skyrocketing because they didn't reform anything in the recent 2 decades? Are you aware they poured ~4bn EUR into "digitization" of government services and nothing's working? The whole system has been broken by corporate lobbies and unethical politicians who just wanted to be voted for. Now tell me about the great social system in Germany that is worth all the tax money.

mbrain 3y ago
non-German living in Germany, I couldn't agree more. When I complain about this, Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home'.
- nforgerit 3y ago
  Ha, that's a very typical answer my compatriots would give. What Germans lack in competence they make up with arrogance. That just seems to be our thing.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home' "You're country is corrupt as hell." Eastern Europeans: "We know" Germans : "Then go back to your country" OR "Impossible, we're Europe's number one economy!!!11one"
gv83 3y ago
And you have not seen Italy!
LeanderK 3y ago
I am sorry but you can not work in the company or build a company in the country and avoid taxes. Your taxes go directly into these things. All the rest of the society has to pay taxes, they can't avoid taxes on their car via an elaborate foreign holding structure. The only way to change it to your liking is via politics, or build it in a different country respecting their rules. Get involved in local politics, especially the state of the school system and many other things are decided on a very low level that can be directly influenced by your district. Everyone contributes and we get back free education (our universities are still good btw. and for certain topics really good) and from what I hear about schools from parents they still work, even with expanded care times. Bürgergeld exists if you really hit a rough spot. Super cheap public transit (50€ per month!) and autobahn is still existing. You say that what Germans lack in competence they make up with arrogance, but it's really to complain about everything and be super pessimistic all the time. You can not just choose to avoid taxes, that's just highly unethical and unfair to everyone who's paying their share and super selfish. I stand by my word: F*k you if you avoid taxes