3 ms·

And how much of that is wash trading? I'm going to guess 99%+.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
This article put it at >70%: https://cointelegraph.com/news/70-of-unregulated-exchange-transactions-are-wash-trading-nber-study https://cointelegraph.com/news/70-of-unregulated-exchange-tr...
- scotty79 3y ago
  If it's constant and at that scale and done in parallel by multiple entities doesn't it become just trading?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mistercheph 3y ago
How much of the movement in NYSE is wash trading?
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  Considering it's illegal and monitored - no where near as much. It's obviously not 0.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    If two independent entitities are trying to sequentially wash trade to inflate the price it no longer looks like a wash trade, but like two entities suddenly finding asset more valuable and bidding for it with each other as it appreciates. So way more than 0.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Exceedingly little, considering it's illegal, and the NYSE employs technological measures to prevent it as well.
- chollida1 3y ago
  > How much of the movement in NYSE is wash trading? Well by definition wash trading results in no change of price, so none of the movement in the NYSE is a result of wash trading. Further more, wash trading is illegal and every order entered into the CLOB is recorded as to which trader sent it so its trivial it detect if a trader did wash trade.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Wash trading can absolutely be used to manipulate prices, that's one of its purposes -- to sell+buy at increasingly higher prices to attempt to make something temporarily appear more valuable than it otherwise would be. I'm not going to comment on whether that's realistically achievable on the NYSE specifically, but it's definitely not true that wash trading doesn't change prices "by definition". To the contrary -- that's one of the reasons it was made illegal.
    - chollida1 3y ago
      Wash trading by definition means nothing changes, the price remains constant as you buy and sell for the same price. Wash trading can not change the price of a stock. It's use is to increase volume. From teh SEC who over sees this. If you aren't happy with their definition you can take it up with them but you don't get to redefine the term for your own use;) https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/aljdec/id78grl.txt https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/aljdec/id78grl.txt > -[1]- Wash trades are purchases and sales of securities that match each other in price, volume and time of execution, and involve no change in beneficial ownership.
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        That's incorrect. Because you're missing the part that in certain circumstances, when you are performing both the sale and the purchase, you can choose whatever sale price you want. E.g. most recent genuine market trades were at $0.50, but you offer for sale at $0.60 and buy your offer at $0.60. Then do the same at $0.65 and $0.70. Then it looks to outsiders like the price really is going up, and that can be used for all sorts of things. You can look it up in Wikipedia if you want, which explicitly gives one of the motivations for wash trading as: "- Falsely driving up asset prices by fabricating trade history with increasing prices" [1] I'm not redefining anything at all. ;) (It is also used for increasing volume, but that's not the only motivation.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wash_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wash_trade
wslh 3y ago
From my knowledge as an incumbent it is much less but I don't know the exact number.

This article put it at >70%: https://cointelegraph.com/news/70-of-unregulated-exchange-transactions-are-wash-trading-nber-study https://cointelegraph.com/news/70-of-unregulated-exchange-tr...

scotty79 3y ago
If it's constant and at that scale and done in parallel by multiple entities doesn't it become just trading?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mistercheph 3y ago

How much of the movement in NYSE is wash trading?

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
Considering it's illegal and monitored - no where near as much. It's obviously not 0.
- scotty79 3y ago
  If two independent entitities are trying to sequentially wash trade to inflate the price it no longer looks like a wash trade, but like two entities suddenly finding asset more valuable and bidding for it with each other as it appreciates. So way more than 0.
crazygringo 3y ago
Exceedingly little, considering it's illegal, and the NYSE employs technological measures to prevent it as well.
chollida1 3y ago
> How much of the movement in NYSE is wash trading? Well by definition wash trading results in no change of price, so none of the movement in the NYSE is a result of wash trading. Further more, wash trading is illegal and every order entered into the CLOB is recorded as to which trader sent it so its trivial it detect if a trader did wash trade.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Wash trading can absolutely be used to manipulate prices, that's one of its purposes -- to sell+buy at increasingly higher prices to attempt to make something temporarily appear more valuable than it otherwise would be. I'm not going to comment on whether that's realistically achievable on the NYSE specifically, but it's definitely not true that wash trading doesn't change prices "by definition". To the contrary -- that's one of the reasons it was made illegal.
  - chollida1 3y ago
    Wash trading by definition means nothing changes, the price remains constant as you buy and sell for the same price. Wash trading can not change the price of a stock. It's use is to increase volume. From teh SEC who over sees this. If you aren't happy with their definition you can take it up with them but you don't get to redefine the term for your own use;) https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/aljdec/id78grl.txt https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/aljdec/id78grl.txt > -[1]- Wash trades are purchases and sales of securities that match each other in price, volume and time of execution, and involve no change in beneficial ownership.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      That's incorrect. Because you're missing the part that in certain circumstances, when you are performing both the sale and the purchase, you can choose whatever sale price you want. E.g. most recent genuine market trades were at $0.50, but you offer for sale at $0.60 and buy your offer at $0.60. Then do the same at $0.65 and $0.70. Then it looks to outsiders like the price really is going up, and that can be used for all sorts of things. You can look it up in Wikipedia if you want, which explicitly gives one of the motivations for wash trading as: "- Falsely driving up asset prices by fabricating trade history with increasing prices" [1] I'm not redefining anything at all. ;) (It is also used for increasing volume, but that's not the only motivation.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wash_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wash_trade

wslh 3y ago

From my knowledge as an incumbent it is much less but I don't know the exact number.