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If people don’t want to pay for YouTube, then why not use peertube[0]? I don’t understand the arguments here. If you don’t want ads, then pay for Premium. It’s

by sotix 3y ago

If people don’t want to pay for YouTube, then why not use peertube[0]? I don’t understand the arguments here. If you don’t want ads, then pay for Premium. It’s fantastic that an option exists to solve the problem! If you don’t like the price, then don’t pay for it. Somehow people have got it in their minds that YouTube owes them content for free. That’s a great mindset to make the shift to peertube and away from YouTube, but I don’t think it holds up as justification for getting mad at YouTube for forcing their preexisting paid plan to remove ads. Either pay for YouTube Premium or shift to a different model of video sharing. Both options currently exist! [0] https://joinpeertube.org/ https://joinpeertube.org/

willcipriano 3y ago
If Google could take some value from me without compensation, they would. In fact they do, they monetize my data and sell it to advertisers. Using a adblocker is just returning the favor.
- jsnell 3y ago
  Well, first of all, they don't actually sell your data. If we accept "sell your data" as a shorthand for "allow targeting ads to you without actually giving the seller of the ad any information about you", it's still something you can control. In fact, the very first time you use YouTube you'd be shown a non-modal dialog about whether they're allowed to use your data for ad targeting or not, and have to make a yes/no choice So it sure sounds like your objection is just an excuse.
- sotix 3y ago
  You can use fastmail instead of gmail. Kagi instead of Google search, Apple Maps or OSM instead of Google maps. Firefox instead of chrome. PiHole to block Google trackers. Disallow the Google indexer in your website’s robots.txt. If you don’t like Google, don’t use their products. Yes, they are hard to avoid. However, in the case of YouTube, it can be avoided by not using it. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    Google has trackers on most websites, even if you don't use a single service, they track you. Google can opt out of me watching videos without ads by sending a cease and desist letter, registered mail to my address. If opt out is a problem make the tracking opt in.
  - danShumway 3y ago
    > Disallow the Google indexer in your website’s robots.txt. Ask news publishers how this went last time they tried it. You can avoid Google for a lot of services, and I encourage people to do so. I use Fastmail, it's great. It doesn't allow me to completely avoid Gmail given that messages I send to family members and business acquaintances with Gmail accounts are still ending up on Google servers, but it is an improvement. OSM is great, Duckduckgo has completely replaced Google search. I run custom ROMs on my Android devices. I'm bullish about Pixelfed as a replacement for Google Photos, although transitioning family members is going to be very painful. Some of this is possible. But when we start talking about robots.txt, Youtube, etc... there are parts of Google services that are so monopolistic and so tightly integrated into ordinary life that they are unavoidable. You want to explain to family members why you can't view their kids' recital that they put on Youtube? And I know when normal artists and creators come up in these conversations, the popular answer is "just don't watch them", ie "just don't participate in any shared culture, it's not that hard, it's not like media is a shared experience that connects us as humans or anything" -- and I've kind of given up arguing about that, but it is always worth reminding that there are entire communities where participation within those communities is practically impossible without being able to view Youtube. Heck, even something that's actually gotten a lot easier to avoid, Twitter, is still basically impossible to completely cut off because if you participate in a community anywhere, odds are good you're going to start seeing Twitter links pasted into chats at some point. Without Nitter, there would be communities I couldn't participate in online and I would have to be regularly playing the role of the annoying guy on every server saying, "sorry, I can't view that link you just posted." Youtube sets itself up as a middleperson in front of culture. Yes, people can pay for better services, we can jump through technical hoops and accept personal inconveniences in order to avoid abusive companies. And people like me are willing to do so, I am willing to make my life more annoying and more difficult to avoid Google. But asking people to walk away from communities and shared cultural experiences and to inconvenience family members and associates around them and to cut off their access to services that indirectly require participation in Google ecosystems -- that is a different ask entirely. > You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I'm fine with this. If adblocking caused Youtube to fail and go out of business, it would probably be healthier in the long term for creators and communities and for video hosting online. It's not going to happen, Google wants to control the market and the instant anything threatens that they'll turn Youtube back into a loss-leader, because Youtube is not and has never been designed to be a sustainable business and profits are a secondary concern for the company. But it would be good in the long-term if it did fail (albeit admittedly very painful and negatively impactful in the short term for a lot of people).
Goronmon 3y ago
If people don’t want to pay for YouTube, then why not use peertube[0]? You won't get a direct answer for this. Only endless justifications as for why it's seemingly impossible to just not use Youtube.
- danShumway 3y ago
  > You won't get a direct answer for this. Only endless justifications So... you will get answers? That you disagree with the reasons give does not mean that they're not giving you reasons. It just means you disagree with the reasons that they gave :)
  - Goronmon 3y ago
    So... you will get answers? No? I haven't seen any answers yet. "Just use an ad-blocker" isn't an answer for why you can just not use Youtube. Neither is "They track personal information" or "I control my browsing experience". "Youtube Premium includes services I don't want." also doesn't answer the question.
    - danShumway 3y ago
      If you're specifically looking for an answer as to why I haven't DNS blocked Youtube from my network even though I have DNS blocked other Google services, I wrote up a longer comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37901189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37901189 I agree that explanations for why not to pay for Youtube are not the same as explanations as to why people can't avoid Youtube entirely. But I don't think my explanation of Google's monopoly status is rare or uncommon and I'm surprised you've never run into someone saying it.

by sotix 3y ago

willcipriano 3y ago

If Google could take some value from me without compensation, they would. In fact they do, they monetize my data and sell it to advertisers. Using a adblocker is just returning the favor.

jsnell 3y ago
Well, first of all, they don't actually sell your data. If we accept "sell your data" as a shorthand for "allow targeting ads to you without actually giving the seller of the ad any information about you", it's still something you can control. In fact, the very first time you use YouTube you'd be shown a non-modal dialog about whether they're allowed to use your data for ad targeting or not, and have to make a yes/no choice So it sure sounds like your objection is just an excuse.
sotix 3y ago
You can use fastmail instead of gmail. Kagi instead of Google search, Apple Maps or OSM instead of Google maps. Firefox instead of chrome. PiHole to block Google trackers. Disallow the Google indexer in your website’s robots.txt. If you don’t like Google, don’t use their products. Yes, they are hard to avoid. However, in the case of YouTube, it can be avoided by not using it. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Google has trackers on most websites, even if you don't use a single service, they track you. Google can opt out of me watching videos without ads by sending a cease and desist letter, registered mail to my address. If opt out is a problem make the tracking opt in.
- danShumway 3y ago
  > Disallow the Google indexer in your website’s robots.txt. Ask news publishers how this went last time they tried it. You can avoid Google for a lot of services, and I encourage people to do so. I use Fastmail, it's great. It doesn't allow me to completely avoid Gmail given that messages I send to family members and business acquaintances with Gmail accounts are still ending up on Google servers, but it is an improvement. OSM is great, Duckduckgo has completely replaced Google search. I run custom ROMs on my Android devices. I'm bullish about Pixelfed as a replacement for Google Photos, although transitioning family members is going to be very painful. Some of this is possible. But when we start talking about robots.txt, Youtube, etc... there are parts of Google services that are so monopolistic and so tightly integrated into ordinary life that they are unavoidable. You want to explain to family members why you can't view their kids' recital that they put on Youtube? And I know when normal artists and creators come up in these conversations, the popular answer is "just don't watch them", ie "just don't participate in any shared culture, it's not that hard, it's not like media is a shared experience that connects us as humans or anything" -- and I've kind of given up arguing about that, but it is always worth reminding that there are entire communities where participation within those communities is practically impossible without being able to view Youtube. Heck, even something that's actually gotten a lot easier to avoid, Twitter, is still basically impossible to completely cut off because if you participate in a community anywhere, odds are good you're going to start seeing Twitter links pasted into chats at some point. Without Nitter, there would be communities I couldn't participate in online and I would have to be regularly playing the role of the annoying guy on every server saying, "sorry, I can't view that link you just posted." Youtube sets itself up as a middleperson in front of culture. Yes, people can pay for better services, we can jump through technical hoops and accept personal inconveniences in order to avoid abusive companies. And people like me are willing to do so, I am willing to make my life more annoying and more difficult to avoid Google. But asking people to walk away from communities and shared cultural experiences and to inconvenience family members and associates around them and to cut off their access to services that indirectly require participation in Google ecosystems -- that is a different ask entirely. > You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I'm fine with this. If adblocking caused Youtube to fail and go out of business, it would probably be healthier in the long term for creators and communities and for video hosting online. It's not going to happen, Google wants to control the market and the instant anything threatens that they'll turn Youtube back into a loss-leader, because Youtube is not and has never been designed to be a sustainable business and profits are a secondary concern for the company. But it would be good in the long-term if it did fail (albeit admittedly very painful and negatively impactful in the short term for a lot of people).

Goronmon 3y ago

If people don’t want to pay for YouTube, then why not use peertube[0]? You won't get a direct answer for this. Only endless justifications as for why it's seemingly impossible to just not use Youtube.

danShumway 3y ago
> You won't get a direct answer for this. Only endless justifications So... you will get answers? That you disagree with the reasons give does not mean that they're not giving you reasons. It just means you disagree with the reasons that they gave :)
- Goronmon 3y ago
  So... you will get answers? No? I haven't seen any answers yet. "Just use an ad-blocker" isn't an answer for why you can just not use Youtube. Neither is "They track personal information" or "I control my browsing experience". "Youtube Premium includes services I don't want." also doesn't answer the question.
  - danShumway 3y ago
    If you're specifically looking for an answer as to why I haven't DNS blocked Youtube from my network even though I have DNS blocked other Google services, I wrote up a longer comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37901189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37901189 I agree that explanations for why not to pay for Youtube are not the same as explanations as to why people can't avoid Youtube entirely. But I don't think my explanation of Google's monopoly status is rare or uncommon and I'm surprised you've never run into someone saying it.