5 ms·

Imagine a couple of years from now, you're working on some stuff for a client. Client sends you a link, but you can't open the link with your non-chromium brows

Imagine a couple of years from now, you're working on some stuff for a client. Client sends you a link, but you can't open the link with your non-chromium browser of choice - it's been built on tech provided by google, and google says: You can only use chrome to view this site. You try to download chrome, but since you once used some ad-block plugin, you've been banned from using all alphabet products. Google has also decided that in order to use chrome, you need to have a valid user account to login with. Clients says screw this, I'm gonna find someone else. (switch out client with friends, family, or whatever - one web for you, one web for the rest).

robertlagrant 3y ago
I think we can all think of potential futures. I don't see why this one is particularly likely. Google has open sourced the guts of its browser so others can make non-Google controlled browsers, and they fund one of the two only real competitors to their browser.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > you can't open the link with your non-chromium browser of choice - it's been built on tech provided by google, and google says: You can only use chrome to view this site. That part is particularly likely because that's literally what Web Environment Integrity does.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Can you speak plainly? I don't think that is literally what it is. That might be a side-effect, but I'd need to see some evidence of that being the case.
    - josephcsible 3y ago
      WEI is a way to cryptographically prove to a remote website that you're really browsing it with an unmodified build of Chrome. Google hasn't said out loud yet that it's going to be used to block other browsers, but what else is there to use it for?
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        I don't think that's what it does. Where did you read that?
        josephcsible 3y ago
        https://vivaldi.com/blog/googles-new-dangerous-web-environment-integrity-spec/ https://vivaldi.com/blog/googles-new-dangerous-web-environme... says: > It would provide websites with an API telling them whether the browser and the platform it is running on that is currently in use is trusted by an authoritative third party (called an attester). And https://www.xda-developers.com/google-web-environment-integrity-api/ https://www.xda-developers.com/google-web-environment-integr... says: > The proposal threatens the free and open internet in a number of ways, but one of the biggest revolves around the fact that should there be a central server that attests to whether a browser can be trusted or not, it means that anything non-standard will not be trusted. In other words, new browsers would not be trusted, and legacy software would no longer be able to access much of the internet after a certain length of time. Given that it verifies the integrity of the browser, it could also technically block certain extensions (such as Adblock) if Google were to go down that route.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        I understand what it could be used for - DNS and PKI as centralised structures could also be used to block things. Parler was kicked off all cloud platforms for political reasons. But that doesn't mean that its sole purpose is to verify that you're using an official Chrome build.
        josephcsible 3y ago
        DNS and PKI have a lot of other purposes, though. What other purposes for WEI can you think of?
        kobalsky 3y ago
        I'm curious, what do you think it does? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Environment_Integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Environment_Integrity The use it to validate if the browser you are using is one of their signed binaries. Of course the original intention was to detect fraudulent ad clicks, but the reality will that you will be met by captchas every step of the way if you dare to compile your own binary.
- Yizahi 3y ago
  People can fork Google Chrome, yet none has done this so far. Not counting pretty GUI or some integrated extensions as a fork really. Google Chromium is genius marketing idea, hats off to the people who invented it, they convinced even programmers that there is some mythical "independent" Chromium project and anyone can fork it. Well, theoretically it is possible, but practically - not so much. The strategy is so successful that not even anti-monopoly departments aren't that interested in it.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Given Edge, Brave, Opera, Silk, Arc, Vivaldi, etc[0], are all built on Chromium, are you sure? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)#Active https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)#Active
    - Yizahi 3y ago
      They are built on Chrome. Chromium is a shim, a pseudo-independent Chrome copy with some small changes, to pretend that there is no Chrome monopoly.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Can you cite how you know this?
        Yizahi 3y ago
        Easy check - does Chromium project makes independent decisions and diverges from the decisions Chrome makes? Meaning, is it a true fork (disregarding who was first/original for a second) or not? So far it seems that everything Google pushes happens both in Chrome and Chromium. I mean significant decisions, like protocol support, rendering, etc. Sure, they cut out their spyware from it, just to please anti-monopoly organizations, but that's about all. Chromium is a puppet entity, existing only for Google's sake.
pluc 3y ago
This is what is happening with my "Android for Work" profile. Since it's all Microsoft and "segregated", Outlook (for work) refuses to open links because I don't have Edge installed, even though I have Chrome and Firefox.
newaccount74 3y ago
This is already happening with lots of small business websites -- they are only on Facebook, so you can't eg. look at the menu without a Facebook account.
- consp 3y ago
  Or company help desks, at this point after twitter changes its licensing lots of companies quit it, it was the only social media account I still used for chat-like help. Most now offer Facebook but under no circumstance am I going to create another account. Now I'm stuck with calling and waiting in line since they also stopped doing email (only callback service, which rarely works).
sanderjd 3y ago
None of this seems very likely.
LinuxBender 3y ago
I send them instructions how to SFTP files to me if it's important enough they will do it. I've managed to get lawyers to use SFTP albeit with a GUI [0a]. If anyone wants to test it out, put "ohblog.net" in the host field, then something like mysql [0b] in the username, leave the password blank and upload silly things into the /pub in the directory. AdminHands is a decent SFTP app for cell phones. If that isn't an option they can mail them to me. If they are important and time sensitive then FedEx have door-to-door courier options. Nowadays it is super simple to use GPG with email using Thunderbird, barely an inconvenience. [1] In my opinion everyone should set this up even if they do not plan to use it in the event something sensitive needs to be discussed and one does not trust platforms like Signal or WhatsApp which I do not. GPG is email provider agnostic. Mozilla are working on Thunderbird for phones. [2] [0a] - https://winscp.net/ https://winscp.net/ [0b] - https://ohblog.net/sftp_accounts_with_null_passwords.txt https://ohblog.net/sftp_accounts_with_null_passwords.txt [1] - https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-encrypt-email-in-thunderbird-and-why-you-should/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-encrypt-email-in-thunde... [2] - https://blog.thunderbird.net/2022/06/faq-thunderbird-mobile-and-k-9-mail/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/2022/06/faq-thunderbird-mobile-...
- bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
  If it's important enough they will do it Notably, this also requires that you are important enough. To some people, like the hypothetical client, you are not.
  - LinuxBender 3y ago
    I agree. For me personally that is a signal to cut ties with a business or organization. It's a red flag when orgs use crappy web portals that demand illogical or ill conceived compliance. I find those "turn key" solutions or platforms like Facebook to be full of dystopian and incompetent practices that are best to distance ones self from. Some may not find that an option but I can only hope that more people push back aggressively on malevolent patterns.

robertlagrant 3y ago

I think we can all think of potential futures. I don't see why this one is particularly likely. Google has open sourced the guts of its browser so others can make non-Google controlled browsers, and they fund one of the two only real competitors to their browser.

josephcsible 3y ago
> you can't open the link with your non-chromium browser of choice - it's been built on tech provided by google, and google says: You can only use chrome to view this site. That part is particularly likely because that's literally what Web Environment Integrity does.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Can you speak plainly? I don't think that is literally what it is. That might be a side-effect, but I'd need to see some evidence of that being the case.
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    WEI is a way to cryptographically prove to a remote website that you're really browsing it with an unmodified build of Chrome. Google hasn't said out loud yet that it's going to be used to block other browsers, but what else is there to use it for?
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      I don't think that's what it does. Where did you read that?
      - josephcsible 3y ago
        https://vivaldi.com/blog/googles-new-dangerous-web-environment-integrity-spec/ https://vivaldi.com/blog/googles-new-dangerous-web-environme... says: > It would provide websites with an API telling them whether the browser and the platform it is running on that is currently in use is trusted by an authoritative third party (called an attester). And https://www.xda-developers.com/google-web-environment-integrity-api/ https://www.xda-developers.com/google-web-environment-integr... says: > The proposal threatens the free and open internet in a number of ways, but one of the biggest revolves around the fact that should there be a central server that attests to whether a browser can be trusted or not, it means that anything non-standard will not be trusted. In other words, new browsers would not be trusted, and legacy software would no longer be able to access much of the internet after a certain length of time. Given that it verifies the integrity of the browser, it could also technically block certain extensions (such as Adblock) if Google were to go down that route.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        I understand what it could be used for - DNS and PKI as centralised structures could also be used to block things. Parler was kicked off all cloud platforms for political reasons. But that doesn't mean that its sole purpose is to verify that you're using an official Chrome build.
        josephcsible 3y ago
        DNS and PKI have a lot of other purposes, though. What other purposes for WEI can you think of?
      - kobalsky 3y ago
        I'm curious, what do you think it does? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Environment_Integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Environment_Integrity The use it to validate if the browser you are using is one of their signed binaries. Of course the original intention was to detect fraudulent ad clicks, but the reality will that you will be met by captchas every step of the way if you dare to compile your own binary.
Yizahi 3y ago
People can fork Google Chrome, yet none has done this so far. Not counting pretty GUI or some integrated extensions as a fork really. Google Chromium is genius marketing idea, hats off to the people who invented it, they convinced even programmers that there is some mythical "independent" Chromium project and anyone can fork it. Well, theoretically it is possible, but practically - not so much. The strategy is so successful that not even anti-monopoly departments aren't that interested in it.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Given Edge, Brave, Opera, Silk, Arc, Vivaldi, etc[0], are all built on Chromium, are you sure? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)#Active https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)#Active
  - Yizahi 3y ago
    They are built on Chrome. Chromium is a shim, a pseudo-independent Chrome copy with some small changes, to pretend that there is no Chrome monopoly.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Can you cite how you know this?
      - Yizahi 3y ago
        Easy check - does Chromium project makes independent decisions and diverges from the decisions Chrome makes? Meaning, is it a true fork (disregarding who was first/original for a second) or not? So far it seems that everything Google pushes happens both in Chrome and Chromium. I mean significant decisions, like protocol support, rendering, etc. Sure, they cut out their spyware from it, just to please anti-monopoly organizations, but that's about all. Chromium is a puppet entity, existing only for Google's sake.

pluc 3y ago

This is what is happening with my "Android for Work" profile. Since it's all Microsoft and "segregated", Outlook (for work) refuses to open links because I don't have Edge installed, even though I have Chrome and Firefox.

newaccount74 3y ago

This is already happening with lots of small business websites -- they are only on Facebook, so you can't eg. look at the menu without a Facebook account.

consp 3y ago
Or company help desks, at this point after twitter changes its licensing lots of companies quit it, it was the only social media account I still used for chat-like help. Most now offer Facebook but under no circumstance am I going to create another account. Now I'm stuck with calling and waiting in line since they also stopped doing email (only callback service, which rarely works).

sanderjd 3y ago

None of this seems very likely.

LinuxBender 3y ago

I send them instructions how to SFTP files to me if it's important enough they will do it. I've managed to get lawyers to use SFTP albeit with a GUI [0a]. If anyone wants to test it out, put "ohblog.net" in the host field, then something like mysql [0b] in the username, leave the password blank and upload silly things into the /pub in the directory. AdminHands is a decent SFTP app for cell phones. If that isn't an option they can mail them to me. If they are important and time sensitive then FedEx have door-to-door courier options. Nowadays it is super simple to use GPG with email using Thunderbird, barely an inconvenience. [1] In my opinion everyone should set this up even if they do not plan to use it in the event something sensitive needs to be discussed and one does not trust platforms like Signal or WhatsApp which I do not. GPG is email provider agnostic. Mozilla are working on Thunderbird for phones. [2] [0a] - https://winscp.net/ https://winscp.net/ [0b] - https://ohblog.net/sftp_accounts_with_null_passwords.txt https://ohblog.net/sftp_accounts_with_null_passwords.txt [1] - https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-encrypt-email-in-thunderbird-and-why-you-should/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-encrypt-email-in-thunde... [2] - https://blog.thunderbird.net/2022/06/faq-thunderbird-mobile-and-k-9-mail/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/2022/06/faq-thunderbird-mobile-...

bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
If it's important enough they will do it Notably, this also requires that you are important enough. To some people, like the hypothetical client, you are not.
- LinuxBender 3y ago
  I agree. For me personally that is a signal to cut ties with a business or organization. It's a red flag when orgs use crappy web portals that demand illogical or ill conceived compliance. I find those "turn key" solutions or platforms like Facebook to be full of dystopian and incompetent practices that are best to distance ones self from. Some may not find that an option but I can only hope that more people push back aggressively on malevolent patterns.