4 ms·

Your the frog living in the well. Think bigger. For eons and millennia society has been structured this way since forever. It's only in the recent three or fou

Your the frog living in the well. Think bigger. For eons and millennia society has been structured this way since forever. It's only in the recent three or four decades has there been a cultural shift. Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. Women taking home the money is a new thing. That only happened in the last 50 or so years. And the social pressures aren't even forcing them to take home the money. To women, it's just an option. For men the pressure is worse. For men it's a social requirement... the survival of the family unit still rests entirely on their shoulders. But again this is besides the point. The main question here is, how does this new opportunity for women to make money suddenly make women deserve a hand out when they choose divide the time devoted to these new opportunities with care giving? You do less work and as a business owner I have to give you the same pay because you're entitled to it? How does that logic work out? It doesn't. If an employee works 4 days a week and obviously has his/her attention divided to other endeavors how does he/she deserve a promotion? Are you kidding? Maybe in her eyes she deserves a promotion, but as a business owner I'd rather promote the single guy who is 100% dedicated because he's the one that actually deserves it. That being said if society wants to make themselves better and give hand outs to women for caregiving... I'm all for it. But don't twist it any other way. What's going on here is a charity. A kind gift to caregivers who are not entitled to said gift in any way. Don't come to me as if women deserve promotions because they have kids to take care of or social pressures to deal with. That's just garbage. Also don't get me started on the pressures on men, it's magnitudes larger than it is for women, magnitudes and we don't go around screaming for a handout.

defrost 3y ago
> Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. > Women taking home the money is a new thing. This is ill founded claptrap smacking of near zero exposure to working history. Farms in history would fail without women doing vast amounts of seriously hard work. Hunter-Gather societies mainly functioned on what was gathered, predominantly by women. It took both working together to make these things work.
- corethree 3y ago
  It's called the breadwinner model. It's followed by many diverse cultures. There are a few exceptions that certain groups with certain interests have over promoted but the generality is the breadwinner model. China: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 Afghanistan: https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:text=Men%20were%20expected%20to%20work,in%20Afghanistan%20(Omidian%20120) https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:t.... Western culture: (also describes the recent societal change) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model Congo: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X211022398 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X2110223... Ancient greece: https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture-family https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture... India: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findings-on-indian-attitudes-toward-gender-roles/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findi... Mayan culture: https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethnology/mayan-textiles/pitzer-collection-of-mayan-textiles/gender-and-the-sexual-division-of-labor/#:~:text=This%20pattern%20reflects%20the%20sexual,production%2C%20childrearing%2C%20or%20housekeeping https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethno.... Inuit: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women mesoamerica: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Mesoamerica https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Me... There's a consistent pattern here that illustrates a general norm.
  - defrost 3y ago
    The consistent pattern is really really shitty links. Modern Chinese wives in the US has F-All to do with traditional farming or Hunter Gatherers. Home school essays submitted that outline the writers own particular bias are not exactly peak Histographic study. An essay on Mayan division of labor does not undercut the reality that there's a ton of work to do and it gets split up (see my closing point), it actually reinforces it. To reiterate - woman work just as hard as men in traditional farming and hunter gatherer lifestyles and your wealth of links don't run counter to that statement. It's not to your credit that you attempt to bludgeon yor way through with a mass of links in the hope that no one will look closely.
isoprophlex 3y ago
What is this? 4chan? I will not engage in much of this angry diatribe because if you use words like "charity" and "hand outs", you're placing yourself on a level of discourse reserved for redpilled /pol/ commenters and angry incels. Please reflect on the high emotional content, and where these emotions flow from. It's not pretty imo. The one comment I want to make is that you're missing my point, out of your own malice or out of my lack of clarity, so here goes. I tell my coworkers (I'm male) that I'll be gone for three months after the birth of our daughter: "but isoprophlex, you don't breastfeed, why stay at home at all?". Out of ~15 weeks leave, only one is fully paid. As long as societies, and expectations, are structured in such a way that women are pressured into leaving the workforce (relatively compared to men), the divide will keep existing. This was my point. No need for frothing about how you'd "never promote a 4d/wk resource over one who's 100% dedicated."
- corethree 3y ago
  Then don't engage. Go away. I gave my opinion in good faith and you turned around and spewed vile personal insults. We're done.

defrost 3y ago

> Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. > Women taking home the money is a new thing. This is ill founded claptrap smacking of near zero exposure to working history. Farms in history would fail without women doing vast amounts of seriously hard work. Hunter-Gather societies mainly functioned on what was gathered, predominantly by women. It took both working together to make these things work.

corethree 3y ago
It's called the breadwinner model. It's followed by many diverse cultures. There are a few exceptions that certain groups with certain interests have over promoted but the generality is the breadwinner model. China: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 Afghanistan: https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:text=Men%20were%20expected%20to%20work,in%20Afghanistan%20(Omidian%20120) https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:t.... Western culture: (also describes the recent societal change) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model Congo: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X211022398 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X2110223... Ancient greece: https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture-family https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture... India: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findings-on-indian-attitudes-toward-gender-roles/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findi... Mayan culture: https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethnology/mayan-textiles/pitzer-collection-of-mayan-textiles/gender-and-the-sexual-division-of-labor/#:~:text=This%20pattern%20reflects%20the%20sexual,production%2C%20childrearing%2C%20or%20housekeeping https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethno.... Inuit: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women mesoamerica: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Mesoamerica https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Me... There's a consistent pattern here that illustrates a general norm.
- defrost 3y ago
  The consistent pattern is really really shitty links. Modern Chinese wives in the US has F-All to do with traditional farming or Hunter Gatherers. Home school essays submitted that outline the writers own particular bias are not exactly peak Histographic study. An essay on Mayan division of labor does not undercut the reality that there's a ton of work to do and it gets split up (see my closing point), it actually reinforces it. To reiterate - woman work just as hard as men in traditional farming and hunter gatherer lifestyles and your wealth of links don't run counter to that statement. It's not to your credit that you attempt to bludgeon yor way through with a mass of links in the hope that no one will look closely.

isoprophlex 3y ago

What is this? 4chan? I will not engage in much of this angry diatribe because if you use words like "charity" and "hand outs", you're placing yourself on a level of discourse reserved for redpilled /pol/ commenters and angry incels. Please reflect on the high emotional content, and where these emotions flow from. It's not pretty imo. The one comment I want to make is that you're missing my point, out of your own malice or out of my lack of clarity, so here goes. I tell my coworkers (I'm male) that I'll be gone for three months after the birth of our daughter: "but isoprophlex, you don't breastfeed, why stay at home at all?". Out of ~15 weeks leave, only one is fully paid. As long as societies, and expectations, are structured in such a way that women are pressured into leaving the workforce (relatively compared to men), the divide will keep existing. This was my point. No need for frothing about how you'd "never promote a 4d/wk resource over one who's 100% dedicated."

corethree 3y ago
Then don't engage. Go away. I gave my opinion in good faith and you turned around and spewed vile personal insults. We're done.