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> If women choose not to work as hard as men, then we shouldn't try to equalize their participation in senior roles This is a myopic, reductionist take. You'r

> If women choose not to work as hard as men, then we shouldn't try to equalize their participation in senior roles This is a myopic, reductionist take. You're missing the forest for the trees. It is not a matter of women choosing not to work as hard as men, it is a matter of society being structured in such a way that men are disproportionately not involved in raising a family, and women being delegated to the task of caregiver even though they themselves would like more equality. Economically, women are pressured to stay out of the workplace for 6+ months, whereas men get a couple of days-weeks to stay at home.

corethree 3y ago
Your the frog living in the well. Think bigger. For eons and millennia society has been structured this way since forever. It's only in the recent three or four decades has there been a cultural shift. Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. Women taking home the money is a new thing. That only happened in the last 50 or so years. And the social pressures aren't even forcing them to take home the money. To women, it's just an option. For men the pressure is worse. For men it's a social requirement... the survival of the family unit still rests entirely on their shoulders. But again this is besides the point. The main question here is, how does this new opportunity for women to make money suddenly make women deserve a hand out when they choose divide the time devoted to these new opportunities with care giving? You do less work and as a business owner I have to give you the same pay because you're entitled to it? How does that logic work out? It doesn't. If an employee works 4 days a week and obviously has his/her attention divided to other endeavors how does he/she deserve a promotion? Are you kidding? Maybe in her eyes she deserves a promotion, but as a business owner I'd rather promote the single guy who is 100% dedicated because he's the one that actually deserves it. That being said if society wants to make themselves better and give hand outs to women for caregiving... I'm all for it. But don't twist it any other way. What's going on here is a charity. A kind gift to caregivers who are not entitled to said gift in any way. Don't come to me as if women deserve promotions because they have kids to take care of or social pressures to deal with. That's just garbage. Also don't get me started on the pressures on men, it's magnitudes larger than it is for women, magnitudes and we don't go around screaming for a handout.
- defrost 3y ago
  > Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. > Women taking home the money is a new thing. This is ill founded claptrap smacking of near zero exposure to working history. Farms in history would fail without women doing vast amounts of seriously hard work. Hunter-Gather societies mainly functioned on what was gathered, predominantly by women. It took both working together to make these things work.
  - corethree 3y ago
    It's called the breadwinner model. It's followed by many diverse cultures. There are a few exceptions that certain groups with certain interests have over promoted but the generality is the breadwinner model. China: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 Afghanistan: https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:text=Men%20were%20expected%20to%20work,in%20Afghanistan%20(Omidian%20120) https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:t.... Western culture: (also describes the recent societal change) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model Congo: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X211022398 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X2110223... Ancient greece: https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture-family https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture... India: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findings-on-indian-attitudes-toward-gender-roles/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findi... Mayan culture: https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethnology/mayan-textiles/pitzer-collection-of-mayan-textiles/gender-and-the-sexual-division-of-labor/#:~:text=This%20pattern%20reflects%20the%20sexual,production%2C%20childrearing%2C%20or%20housekeeping https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethno.... Inuit: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women mesoamerica: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Mesoamerica https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Me... There's a consistent pattern here that illustrates a general norm.
    - defrost 3y ago

corethree 3y ago

Your the frog living in the well. Think bigger. For eons and millennia society has been structured this way since forever. It's only in the recent three or four decades has there been a cultural shift. Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. Women taking home the money is a new thing. That only happened in the last 50 or so years. And the social pressures aren't even forcing them to take home the money. To women, it's just an option. For men the pressure is worse. For men it's a social requirement... the survival of the family unit still rests entirely on their shoulders. But again this is besides the point. The main question here is, how does this new opportunity for women to make money suddenly make women deserve a hand out when they choose divide the time devoted to these new opportunities with care giving? You do less work and as a business owner I have to give you the same pay because you're entitled to it? How does that logic work out? It doesn't. If an employee works 4 days a week and obviously has his/her attention divided to other endeavors how does he/she deserve a promotion? Are you kidding? Maybe in her eyes she deserves a promotion, but as a business owner I'd rather promote the single guy who is 100% dedicated because he's the one that actually deserves it. That being said if society wants to make themselves better and give hand outs to women for caregiving... I'm all for it. But don't twist it any other way. What's going on here is a charity. A kind gift to caregivers who are not entitled to said gift in any way. Don't come to me as if women deserve promotions because they have kids to take care of or social pressures to deal with. That's just garbage. Also don't get me started on the pressures on men, it's magnitudes larger than it is for women, magnitudes and we don't go around screaming for a handout.

defrost 3y ago
> Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. > Women taking home the money is a new thing. This is ill founded claptrap smacking of near zero exposure to working history. Farms in history would fail without women doing vast amounts of seriously hard work. Hunter-Gather societies mainly functioned on what was gathered, predominantly by women. It took both working together to make these things work.
- corethree 3y ago
  It's called the breadwinner model. It's followed by many diverse cultures. There are a few exceptions that certain groups with certain interests have over promoted but the generality is the breadwinner model. China: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 Afghanistan: https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:text=Men%20were%20expected%20to%20work,in%20Afghanistan%20(Omidian%20120) https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:t.... Western culture: (also describes the recent societal change) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model Congo: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X211022398 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X2110223... Ancient greece: https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture-family https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture... India: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findings-on-indian-attitudes-toward-gender-roles/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findi... Mayan culture: https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethnology/mayan-textiles/pitzer-collection-of-mayan-textiles/gender-and-the-sexual-division-of-labor/#:~:text=This%20pattern%20reflects%20the%20sexual,production%2C%20childrearing%2C%20or%20housekeeping https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethno.... Inuit: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women mesoamerica: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Mesoamerica https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Me... There's a consistent pattern here that illustrates a general norm.
  - defrost 3y ago