6 ms·

Signal: No evidence that 0day is real

38 points by skilled 3y ago

skilled 3y ago
Context, https://hax0rbana.social/@adam/111236822600142276 https://hax0rbana.social/@adam/111236822600142276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37888531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37888531 Nitter, https://nitter.net/signalapp/status/1713789255359619171 https://nitter.net/signalapp/status/1713789255359619171
- ploum 3y ago
  The thread on Mastodon: https://mastodon.world/@signalapp/111243840362802813 https://mastodon.world/@signalapp/111243840362802813
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
I am not sure you can trust signal or any other app that offers E2EE. Would there be any way to independently verify a claim? I am working on some E2EE as well while trying to answer the question with full transparency. Download a binary and trust the moment it is typed the content is encrypted.
- joshuamorton 3y ago
  Signal provides source code and binary hashes, so you can build from source and ensure the running binaries match the source you built from. You can further use tools like Wireshark to show that the data sent away from your device is encrypted. So yes, this is fairly straightforward.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >You can further use tools like Wireshark to show that the data sent away from your device is encrypted That's pretty pointless. Everything is encrypted nowadays, what you want to know is if it's encrypted well enough to not be easily decrypted by any actors.
    - ludwik 3y ago
      But you know how the encryption works—the entire Signal protocol is public and described in minute detail (see https://www.signal.org/docs/ https://www.signal.org/docs/). You can use Wireshark to make sure Signal isn't lying, i.e., to verify that the client adheres to the protocol. This is possible since you do have access to the keys.
  - pizzafeelsright 3y ago
    Thank you. Now why can't the service be used without a phone number? Phones leak data that remove privacy.
    - Moldoteck 3y ago
      afaik that's their next step- introduction of usernames. Or you can use Element/Matrix, that is based on signal encryption protocol but does not need phone nr
      - blitzar 3y ago
        > afaik that's their next step- introduction of usernames In the time that usernames not phone numbers have been their "next step" they have introduced; gifs, encrypted audio and video calls, a built in scam crypto payment scheme, snapchat stories clone and a cryptographic upgrade to defeat quantum computing. Changing from phone number to username is apparently hard.
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        as they said - all their infra was relying on mobile phones, so maybe all other features are really easier to implement compared to rewriting all architecture and providing backwards compatibility
        pizzafeelsright 3y ago
        Replace int with uuid?
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        Afaik source code is open, maybe you can contribute if you think that's that easy
      - boring_twenties 3y ago
        Source on Matrix being "based on signal encryption protocol?" I'm pretty sure that's wildly incorrect
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    I guess the question was referring to how do we know it's e2ee and not simple server-client encryption? Ideally, it would be nice to be able to add additional custom encryption on any client, so that ppl that really need it will be extra protected
    - mkj 3y ago
      Your phone's client encrypts it to a public key of the receiver phone's client. The associated decrypting key never leaves that receiving phone (verified by looking at the source code). You know it's the correct public key if you check the "security code" thing (not that many people do that, but hopefully enough people do that any tricks would be caught)
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > You can further use tools like Wireshark to show that the data sent away from your device is encrypted. Data sent away from your device is encrypted on Facebook Messenger and Telegram too, but that doesn't mean anything if it's decrypted upon arrival at the server, or if the receiver backs everything up in plaintext.
tjrgergw 3y ago
[flagged]
- uselpa 3y ago
  which is why it should be opt-in, not opt-out
  - ancientworldnow 3y ago
    It is opt-in.
- sweatypalmer 3y ago
  If you kept reading you'd see that the previews are actually generated by the sender. So it's unlikely there's any privacy leakage happening at all. But even if there was, I'm not sure why you're assuming that someone would need to get their head checked if they are using a default feature. Even if you turn off link previews you would still receive link previews. You just don't send the link previews.

38 points by skilled 3y ago

Context, https://hax0rbana.social/@adam/111236822600142276 https://hax0rbana.social/@adam/111236822600142276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37888531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37888531 Nitter, https://nitter.net/signalapp/status/1713789255359619171 https://nitter.net/signalapp/status/1713789255359619171

ploum 3y ago
The thread on Mastodon: https://mastodon.world/@signalapp/111243840362802813 https://mastodon.world/@signalapp/111243840362802813

pizzafeelsright 3y ago

I am not sure you can trust signal or any other app that offers E2EE. Would there be any way to independently verify a claim? I am working on some E2EE as well while trying to answer the question with full transparency. Download a binary and trust the moment it is typed the content is encrypted.

joshuamorton 3y ago
Signal provides source code and binary hashes, so you can build from source and ensure the running binaries match the source you built from. You can further use tools like Wireshark to show that the data sent away from your device is encrypted. So yes, this is fairly straightforward.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >You can further use tools like Wireshark to show that the data sent away from your device is encrypted That's pretty pointless. Everything is encrypted nowadays, what you want to know is if it's encrypted well enough to not be easily decrypted by any actors.
  - ludwik 3y ago
    But you know how the encryption works—the entire Signal protocol is public and described in minute detail (see https://www.signal.org/docs/ https://www.signal.org/docs/). You can use Wireshark to make sure Signal isn't lying, i.e., to verify that the client adheres to the protocol. This is possible since you do have access to the keys.
- pizzafeelsright 3y ago
  Thank you. Now why can't the service be used without a phone number? Phones leak data that remove privacy.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    afaik that's their next step- introduction of usernames. Or you can use Element/Matrix, that is based on signal encryption protocol but does not need phone nr
    - blitzar 3y ago
      > afaik that's their next step- introduction of usernames In the time that usernames not phone numbers have been their "next step" they have introduced; gifs, encrypted audio and video calls, a built in scam crypto payment scheme, snapchat stories clone and a cryptographic upgrade to defeat quantum computing. Changing from phone number to username is apparently hard.
      - Moldoteck 3y ago
        as they said - all their infra was relying on mobile phones, so maybe all other features are really easier to implement compared to rewriting all architecture and providing backwards compatibility
        pizzafeelsright 3y ago
        Replace int with uuid?
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        Afaik source code is open, maybe you can contribute if you think that's that easy
    - boring_twenties 3y ago
      Source on Matrix being "based on signal encryption protocol?" I'm pretty sure that's wildly incorrect
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  I guess the question was referring to how do we know it's e2ee and not simple server-client encryption? Ideally, it would be nice to be able to add additional custom encryption on any client, so that ppl that really need it will be extra protected
  - mkj 3y ago
    Your phone's client encrypts it to a public key of the receiver phone's client. The associated decrypting key never leaves that receiving phone (verified by looking at the source code). You know it's the correct public key if you check the "security code" thing (not that many people do that, but hopefully enough people do that any tricks would be caught)
- sofixa 3y ago
  > You can further use tools like Wireshark to show that the data sent away from your device is encrypted. Data sent away from your device is encrypted on Facebook Messenger and Telegram too, but that doesn't mean anything if it's decrypted upon arrival at the server, or if the receiver backs everything up in plaintext.

tjrgergw 3y ago

[flagged]

uselpa 3y ago
which is why it should be opt-in, not opt-out
- ancientworldnow 3y ago
  It is opt-in.
sweatypalmer 3y ago
If you kept reading you'd see that the previews are actually generated by the sender. So it's unlikely there's any privacy leakage happening at all. But even if there was, I'm not sure why you're assuming that someone would need to get their head checked if they are using a default feature. Even if you turn off link previews you would still receive link previews. You just don't send the link previews.