5 ms·

Love it-- but since I'm not using systemd, it's a no-go. Would love to see it support more diverse systems, but last I checked it's pretty tightly coupled and I

Love it-- but since I'm not using systemd, it's a no-go. Would love to see it support more diverse systems, but last I checked it's pretty tightly coupled and I'm not sure who would have the bandwidth to adapt it.

xenator 3y ago
Why you don't use systemd? Anything against it?
- LanternLight83 3y ago
  Thanks for asking! I've always used the "default" init system when trying a new distro, and while I enjoyed running systemd on Fedora, I've also enjoyed working with OpenRC on Gentoo and with Shepherd on GNU Guix. I've tinkered a lot with early boot, writing my own initrds, curating system services under each of these init's. systemd is undeniably powerful, but I enjoy how broad the ecosystem is. Off the top of my head, I personally like having real logfiles under `/var/log`, which I've occasionally had to examine by mounting the disk on another machine after really mucking something up :p
- omgmajk 3y ago
  Systemd is still a sore spot for some people, in some ways me included, but I'm over it and use it daily.
INTPenis 3y ago
The reason cockpit exists is systemd and dbus. Without them it would be much harder to develop.
- LanternLight83 3y ago
  That's true to some extent, but I think the real reason for the coupling is because that's just IBM's use-case and worldview. Cockpit is essentialy a wrapper over systemd commands, and one commentor has demonstrated how it could have been envisioned as a modular platform allowing end-users to wrap anything from direct kernel interfaces to entirely custom commands. They've made something useful and beautiful, but I wish it had been designed to make less assumption about it's runtime environment and expose it's toolkit to end-users so that we could all enjoy it for our own needs.
  - INTPenis 3y ago
    Any predecessor to cockpit like webmin or cpanel have always been a huge mess, because there is no uniformity in Linux. Dbus is a message bus for all of Linux, this is a requirement if you want to develop stable tools. A uniform message bus so you don't have to keep changing your code for every single distro and release.
  - bonzini 3y ago
    Has it become some weird kind of virtue signaling to replace Red Hat with IBM?
k_roy 3y ago
Are we still fighting systemd? Why beyond being different? Proudly announcing "but I don't use systemd" seems less like a humblebrag and more like an old man "get off my lawn"
- oooyay 3y ago
  I was curious because my gut says ideology about the vastness of systemd. Turns out, there's still a number of systems that don't make use of systemd: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions... They may have more nuanced answers.
  - k_roy 3y ago
    Sure. I used to be one of the ideological ones using Devuan. "A number" being the operative word here. It's a small number, and for a pretty good reason. I get there is an important reason to have choice, but bragging about how you don't use systemd is just meme-y and comes from a place of (misplaced) elitism usually.
    - serf 3y ago
      >I get there is an important reason to have choice, but bragging about how you don't use systemd is just meme-y and comes from a place of (misplaced) elitism usually. I think you're projecting. No one bragged about such a thing, they just merely mentioned their specific situation. It's not all text-editor-wars and squabbles, as stated and even acknowledged before : there exist reasons aside from nerd elitism to choose something other than systemd.
      - 9dev 3y ago
        > there exist reasons aside from nerd elitism to choose something other than systemd. name one.
        k_roy 3y ago
gbraad 3y ago
It can be hosted without Systemd: sudo runuser -u cockpit-wsinstance -- /usr/libexec/cockpit-ws --port=9090 --for-tls-proxy
- LanternLight83 3y ago
  Thanks! Funnily enough, I don't think this matches the approach I tried from some GH issue back in the day :p And of course, we'd still need to reimplement many of the existing systemd-based modules. I wonder if the creation and maintenance of these modules (given the existing size and status of the ecosystem) is less-than-trivial in comparison to something like a set of NixOS config bindings. At the end of the day, I'd be more exited about a project that puts portability and customization first than retrofitting an upstream product to whom I'm not a target user.
  - gbraad 3y ago
    This is also what is used by development and allows you to use codespaces or gitpod. I am pretty sure this is on GH also, as Martin and I recently discussed this. Note: Not understanding the concerns with systemd or dbus. This works for major distros.
kalaksi 3y ago
I wasn't quite satisfied with how Cockpit works, so I've recently been developing an alternative that aims to be customizable, modular and without daemons or other extra dependencies: https://github.com/kalaksi/lightkeeper https://github.com/kalaksi/lightkeeper
- LanternLight83 3y ago
  That looks awesome! I'll definitely be keeping tabs on this c:

xenator 3y ago

Why you don't use systemd? Anything against it?

LanternLight83 3y ago
Thanks for asking! I've always used the "default" init system when trying a new distro, and while I enjoyed running systemd on Fedora, I've also enjoyed working with OpenRC on Gentoo and with Shepherd on GNU Guix. I've tinkered a lot with early boot, writing my own initrds, curating system services under each of these init's. systemd is undeniably powerful, but I enjoy how broad the ecosystem is. Off the top of my head, I personally like having real logfiles under `/var/log`, which I've occasionally had to examine by mounting the disk on another machine after really mucking something up :p
omgmajk 3y ago
Systemd is still a sore spot for some people, in some ways me included, but I'm over it and use it daily.

INTPenis 3y ago

The reason cockpit exists is systemd and dbus. Without them it would be much harder to develop.

LanternLight83 3y ago
That's true to some extent, but I think the real reason for the coupling is because that's just IBM's use-case and worldview. Cockpit is essentialy a wrapper over systemd commands, and one commentor has demonstrated how it could have been envisioned as a modular platform allowing end-users to wrap anything from direct kernel interfaces to entirely custom commands. They've made something useful and beautiful, but I wish it had been designed to make less assumption about it's runtime environment and expose it's toolkit to end-users so that we could all enjoy it for our own needs.
- INTPenis 3y ago
  Any predecessor to cockpit like webmin or cpanel have always been a huge mess, because there is no uniformity in Linux. Dbus is a message bus for all of Linux, this is a requirement if you want to develop stable tools. A uniform message bus so you don't have to keep changing your code for every single distro and release.
- bonzini 3y ago
  Has it become some weird kind of virtue signaling to replace Red Hat with IBM?

k_roy 3y ago

Are we still fighting systemd? Why beyond being different? Proudly announcing "but I don't use systemd" seems less like a humblebrag and more like an old man "get off my lawn"

oooyay 3y ago
I was curious because my gut says ideology about the vastness of systemd. Turns out, there's still a number of systems that don't make use of systemd: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions... They may have more nuanced answers.
- k_roy 3y ago
  Sure. I used to be one of the ideological ones using Devuan. "A number" being the operative word here. It's a small number, and for a pretty good reason. I get there is an important reason to have choice, but bragging about how you don't use systemd is just meme-y and comes from a place of (misplaced) elitism usually.
  - serf 3y ago
    >I get there is an important reason to have choice, but bragging about how you don't use systemd is just meme-y and comes from a place of (misplaced) elitism usually. I think you're projecting. No one bragged about such a thing, they just merely mentioned their specific situation. It's not all text-editor-wars and squabbles, as stated and even acknowledged before : there exist reasons aside from nerd elitism to choose something other than systemd.
    - 9dev 3y ago
      > there exist reasons aside from nerd elitism to choose something other than systemd. name one.
      - k_roy 3y ago

gbraad 3y ago

It can be hosted without Systemd: sudo runuser -u cockpit-wsinstance -- /usr/libexec/cockpit-ws --port=9090 --for-tls-proxy

LanternLight83 3y ago
Thanks! Funnily enough, I don't think this matches the approach I tried from some GH issue back in the day :p And of course, we'd still need to reimplement many of the existing systemd-based modules. I wonder if the creation and maintenance of these modules (given the existing size and status of the ecosystem) is less-than-trivial in comparison to something like a set of NixOS config bindings. At the end of the day, I'd be more exited about a project that puts portability and customization first than retrofitting an upstream product to whom I'm not a target user.
- gbraad 3y ago
  This is also what is used by development and allows you to use codespaces or gitpod. I am pretty sure this is on GH also, as Martin and I recently discussed this. Note: Not understanding the concerns with systemd or dbus. This works for major distros.

kalaksi 3y ago

I wasn't quite satisfied with how Cockpit works, so I've recently been developing an alternative that aims to be customizable, modular and without daemons or other extra dependencies: https://github.com/kalaksi/lightkeeper https://github.com/kalaksi/lightkeeper

LanternLight83 3y ago
That looks awesome! I'll definitely be keeping tabs on this c: