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Judging Saudi Arabia is not that simple. I highly recommend this long-form part-article, part-interview of MBS, from the Atlantic. https://archive.ph/s6i5m ht

Judging Saudi Arabia is not that simple. I highly recommend this long-form part-article, part-interview of MBS, from the Atlantic. https://archive.ph/s6i5m https://archive.ph/s6i5m

southernplaces7 3y ago
And how does the article discredit any criticism of Saudi Arabia's oppressiveness? Not only does it plainly state how badly free expression is crushed in the country, it also adds wonderful PR-friendly zingers like this about the country's de facto leader MBS: "He has also created a climate of fear unprecedented in Saudi history. Saudi Arabia has never been a free country. But even the most oppressive of MBS’s predecessors, his uncle King Faisal, never presided over an atmosphere like that of the present day, when it is widely believed that you place yourself in danger if you criticize the ruler or pay even a mild compliment to his enemies. MBS’s critics—not regicidal zealots or al‑Qaeda sympathizers, just ordinary people with independent thoughts about his reforms—have gone into exile. Some fear that if he keeps getting his way, the modernized Saudi Arabia will oppress in ways the old Saudi Arabia never imagined. Khalid al-Jabri, the exiled son of one of MBS’s most prominent critics, warned me that worse was yet to come: “When he’s King Mohammed, Crown Prince MBS is going to be remembered as an angel.” Yeah, sounds positively anarchic in its protections of free speech. Then again the UN has a long history of tacitly and sometimes openly kowtowing to the "social needs" of its more repressive members, who routinely bribe and browbeat their way through the organization towards more anti-liberal influence than many of them have any right to claim on the world stage. Just holding a conference like the one in this HN post in a country like the Kingdom is a grotesque joke
- harshreality 3y ago
  You can criticize MBS all you want. What I disagree with is criticism that fails to admit that the regime would very likely be even worse overall without MBS. How do you weigh MBS's substantial social reforms against his retaliation for personal criticism? This isn't a simple trade either, since a more socially repressive regime would still retaliate against critics, just maybe not Khashoggi, or not in the same discoverable way. I don't see MBS or his underlings assassinating Atlantic staff over that article. Do you? Are you aware that India just assassinated an Indian national in Canada? It's causing a diplomatic spat, but I don't see mass outrage over Murmu akin to outrage over MBS.
mptest 3y ago
No, judging SA for dismembering a journalist is pretty fucking simple actually.

Judging Saudi Arabia is not that simple. I highly recommend this long-form part-article, part-interview of MBS, from the Atlantic. https://archive.ph/s6i5m https://archive.ph/s6i5m

southernplaces7 3y ago

And how does the article discredit any criticism of Saudi Arabia's oppressiveness? Not only does it plainly state how badly free expression is crushed in the country, it also adds wonderful PR-friendly zingers like this about the country's de facto leader MBS: "He has also created a climate of fear unprecedented in Saudi history. Saudi Arabia has never been a free country. But even the most oppressive of MBS’s predecessors, his uncle King Faisal, never presided over an atmosphere like that of the present day, when it is widely believed that you place yourself in danger if you criticize the ruler or pay even a mild compliment to his enemies. MBS’s critics—not regicidal zealots or al‑Qaeda sympathizers, just ordinary people with independent thoughts about his reforms—have gone into exile. Some fear that if he keeps getting his way, the modernized Saudi Arabia will oppress in ways the old Saudi Arabia never imagined. Khalid al-Jabri, the exiled son of one of MBS’s most prominent critics, warned me that worse was yet to come: “When he’s King Mohammed, Crown Prince MBS is going to be remembered as an angel.” Yeah, sounds positively anarchic in its protections of free speech. Then again the UN has a long history of tacitly and sometimes openly kowtowing to the "social needs" of its more repressive members, who routinely bribe and browbeat their way through the organization towards more anti-liberal influence than many of them have any right to claim on the world stage. Just holding a conference like the one in this HN post in a country like the Kingdom is a grotesque joke

harshreality 3y ago
You can criticize MBS all you want. What I disagree with is criticism that fails to admit that the regime would very likely be even worse overall without MBS. How do you weigh MBS's substantial social reforms against his retaliation for personal criticism? This isn't a simple trade either, since a more socially repressive regime would still retaliate against critics, just maybe not Khashoggi, or not in the same discoverable way. I don't see MBS or his underlings assassinating Atlantic staff over that article. Do you? Are you aware that India just assassinated an Indian national in Canada? It's causing a diplomatic spat, but I don't see mass outrage over Murmu akin to outrage over MBS.

mptest 3y ago

No, judging SA for dismembering a journalist is pretty fucking simple actually.