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Why I’m taking full responsibility for my education

42 points by Jarred 15y ago

lukejduncan 15y ago
This reminds me of a quote I enjoyed enough to write down: "The difference between the university graduate and the autodidact lies not so much in the extent of knowledge as in the extent of vitality and self-confidence." - Milan Kundera (The Unbearable lightness of being)
andrewfelix 15y ago
"Good teachers actively demonstrate why what they’re teaching is interesting/useful/insightful." A lot of what you learn has benefits beyond being obviously useful and insightful. It teaches you how to think. I hated maths and couldn't understand the practical purposes of it. However it helped me develop a way to think about problem solving much later in life. I hated ancient history, What possible benefit does understanding the battle of Troy have to do with me getting a job? It helped teach me critical thinking, which is incredibly important. While I agree there are problems with modern western education, you've just taken a few of personal anecdotes and written off thousands of useful programs.
victork2 15y ago
Hi, I respect you point of view but... it won't hold for high level education. Let me explain why: * I just wish people could forget the idea that Math is fun. It is not. It's interesting, but it's not fun and can be totally counter intuitive, thus there is no "fun" way to demonstrate it. You are mentioning about Geometry but the geometry you are talking about is a very very very tiny subset of what geometry is at a higher level. It's not an topic from Geometry but for example how do you demonstrate that the ensemble of invertible matrix is dense in the set of R(n,n) matrix in a visual manner? These concepts are so abstract that they become too hard to demonstrate. Achilles tendon of most american students I have known and I have worked with is that they are extremely dependent of a representation of what they are dealing with and they struggle with very abstract concept while in the Russian/ French/ Chinese education teachers teach very early to student to manipulate abstract objects (4-D vectors, advanced algebra etc... are often seen in high school). * The "get less point if you hand back the report late" is actually a good thing for your students. Read one of the Dan Ariely book that showed that this pace helps students study and in the end they end up having better marks. That's the sad human psychology. * For the theorem you need to learn to be a programmer I agree, you don't need them to be a decent coder. However... there's a say among lawyers: "A good lawyer knows the law, an excellent lawyer knows the judge". If you want to be a great programmer sometimes tools at your disposal fall short and... it's your turn to create. This is the moment where theorems become really important and a great programmer will know how to leverage them whereas a decent programmer will fall short. "A good programmer knows the tools, an excellent programmer knows the theorems" !
- peter_l_downs 15y ago
  To be fair, the author only claims to talk about high school.
- Brashman 15y ago
  I think this extends some of your same ideas: You can't always learn with the expectation that everything has a perfectly applicable use case (i.e the point about learning Geometry to build a renderer). This may be fine if all you want to do is (re-)implement things that have been done before but if you want to develop new things and solve new problems, you won't know beforehand what tools and what theory will lend to the solution. I'm doing a PhD now and I will take classes and read papers outside of my focus to see if anything will lend itself to my research. Much of this doesn't go anywhere until one day I go, "this problems kinds of sounds like what they did in [that other field]". Also, many complex topics build upon many, many smaller results. I've found this true for large portions of math. Many readily applicable theorems, for example with applications in signal processing and control systems, require many years of math background and maturity. It's very difficult on the onset to connect the basics to the complex theories. (On a personal note, I've found that I had a relatively extensive math background as an undergrad. You could argue that the extra math I did was not worthwhile as it isn't all applicable. However, in some of the classes I've taken in grad school, I've noticed the gap in math background and familiarity as other students try to catch up.) That said, I do admire the OP for taking hold of his education. I did not find my high school education, targeted at the average or at most students, to be well-suited for myself. I would just say that there's a reason the topics and material chosen are what they are. Extending what's done in school is a great idea, but if you are going to deviate, make sure you have a very good idea of what you are deviating from (and why).
- unimpressive 15y ago
  > I just wish people could forget the idea that Math is fun. It is not. It's interesting, but it's not fun and can be totally counter intuitive, thus there is no "fun" way to demonstrate it. (Disclosure: I haven't read the OP, or the rest of your post really beyond this sentence. I skimmed.) (Double disclosure: I too am in high school.) An emphasis on "fun" is one of the most misleading concepts in trying to get people to pay attention. Some things can be gamified, others well...not so much. (See: Educational games: The bane of every elementary school kids existence.) In a way it's almost profane. Trying to make things interesting by making them fun when the underlying concept is already interesting. It's just that you have to focus on it in a small picture, so it makes it hard to see the bigger concepts that it's a part of. (Objectively I know that if I read through mathematics texts long enough it gets non-trivial and interesting, but actually doing that is so painful as to be impossible. (Impossible in the "I see no way to do it." sense of the word.)) Objectively I also know that I'll be mediocre at any sort of CS effort until I take the plunge. Still not motivating. Other things are just too distracting. I almost feel I should just unplug my Ethernet cable and hide it until I emerge a hacker.
tomjen3 15y ago
That is a good start, but you should also take responsibility for the rest of your life. In fact, everybody should do this. It is called being an adult.
blindhippo 15y ago
The author doesn't know enough to know what they don't know. A high school student doesn't have enough knowledge nor experience to be writing essays on educational theories. This entire post reads as a "I didn't get taught the way I thought I should, so I'm mad about it" rant. Get your diploma, get a degree and come back in 5 years when you've got some solid education and life experience. You might be able to figure out why the education system is setup the way it is after that (hint: it isn't setup to promote effective education).
typicalrunt 15y ago
It's all a journey. Some good, some bad. I believe everyone needs to start that journey but not everyone needs to see it to completion. Naively, I like to think that nobody should look back on high school, university, or anything until many years AFTER it has completed. Only then have you progressed far enough away from the experience to make an objective view of it.
draggnar 15y ago
Today's Calvin and Hobbes is relevant: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2012/04/02 http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2012/04/02
- tkahn6 15y ago
  In my experience the institution itself (the state-mandated curriculum, the teachers, other students) is the limiting reagent, not the individual student who wants a meaningful education. There's only so much you can do when everyone around you wants to know if "this is going to be on the test?" rather than "is there a deeper meaning to what this character said?".
  - deleted 15y ago
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  - sopooneo 15y ago
    Keep in mind that there are lot's of ways for a school to be bad. I'm always frustrated when people say "the problem with education in this country..." and then list the particulars of their experience. There is a vast diversity of dysfunction ranging from crumbling physical plant to horrible teachers and sometimes lousy parents and lazy students. There are also some phenomenal public schools in the United States.
mortuus 15y ago
The author looks to be planning a future post on how he plans to take on this responsibility. Can anyone (who feels that they have 'taken full responsibility') share what path they have forged?
- davegauer 15y ago
  Over the last fifteen years, I have taken full responsibility for my own education. Reading has played the most fundamental role in my education. I have always loved learning from well-written books. At times, it might have been a disadvantage to not have a mentor to guide my progress or to answer questions. I'm certainly not a "gifted" learner and I have often spent long hours trying to understand a page of a book. But it is always incredibly satisfying when I finally do. I think the most rewarding thing about taking responsibility for your own learning is gaining both humility and confidence. I am humbled by the amount of things I still have yet to learn in the enormous field of computer science. But I have also gained an enormous confidence in my _ability_ to learn. I know, from fifteen years of experience, that I can learn anything I want to as long as I apply myself. Another benefit is that books are far cheaper than classrooms, they're portable, they go at your pace (you can turn the pages as quickly or slowly as you want), and you can keep them on a shelf to refer to for the rest of your life. And e-books are even better!
peter_l_downs 15y ago
> By officially going to a public high school, students cede a > large portion of their responsibility for their education to the school. > In other words, if you aren’t learning much, it’s the school’s fault. I'm a senior at a public high school, and I absolutely disagree. The onus to learn always falls on the individual. I refuse to believe that there is a student anywhere that really wants to learn but cannot. Libraries and the internet are always available, as are other people — all of these resources can be learned from. The author seems unhappy with their high school experience. Public schooling may have its flaws, but to blame one's lack of an education on one's school would be misguided. > For example, a good way of teaching Geometry is to have students write a graphics renderer. No it wouldn't. Not everyone is interested in programming or computer games.
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- timwiseman 15y ago
  I partially agree. The onus is always on the indivdual. An organized class can provide comraderie, a place to ask questions, guidance, and many other benefits. But in the end, it is always up to the individual to get something out of it. A determined person with some basic resources can learn without a class, and a person who puts no effort in will not learn in even the best class. But as for I refuse to believe that there is a student anywhere that really wants to learn but cannot. That is true, but only to a degree. There remain plenty of places, even in America, where internet access is limited and a young student in particular may not have the resources to get consistent and frequent internet access. Similarly, there are places where the libraries are not accessible in a practical way. A truly determined person, such as Srīnivāsa Rāmānujan can rise above, but they are the exceptions and even Ramanujan got help from people to reach his peak.
  - peter_l_downs 15y ago
    > There remain plenty of places, even in America, where internet access is > limited and a young student in particular may not have the resources to > get consistent and frequent internet access. Similarly, there are places > where the libraries are not accessible in a practical way. Ok, I'll concede that there may be cases where it is impossible for a determined individual to learn as much as they want. But in the majority cases, I think the old adage "if there's a will, there's a way" remains applicable.
Jarred 15y ago
From reading the comments here, people seem to think I'm dropping out and don't plan on going to university. Let me clear that up. I'm going to get a Certificate of Profiency (I'm currently waiting for the results). In California, it's legally required to be seen as the equivalent of a high school diploma. It's essentially a GED for people under 18. I plan on going to a high-end university in 1-2 years.
- Steko 15y ago
  What's going to change at the university? I mean sure they have more variety but aren't they incentivizing a credential? Are the teachers there magically more fun or interested in teaching you?
  - blindhippo 15y ago
    The author will find out that not much is different in University. They might even find out that University professors are even LESS incentivized to teach specific students things then grade school teachers are. Strong will and individual drive to learn define great university students - hopefully this kid adheres to that path and capitalizes on the opportunities University will open up for him. But he's currently dropping out of High School and trying an alternate route because it doesn't meet his rather ill informed expectations - if this occurs again at a higher educational institute, he will be making a mistake. One thing I've noticed about recent high school grads: they all seem to think the world should meet their expectations and if not, there is something wrong with everyone else. University is a great place to have that attitude beaten out of you. If you don't come out of University humbled, you didn't go to a good one. Message to the author: university is going to kick your ass - start preparing for it. If you do so, it sounds like you have the attitude and drive to do very well for yourself. But make sure you learn what you don't know before you start to solidify your opinions on things.
- jarrettcoggin 15y ago
  If you haven't already, I highly recommend you reading Derek Sivers' "There's no Speed Limit" post: http://sivers.org/kimo http://sivers.org/kimo
evincarofautumn 15y ago
I, for one, agree with the author in large part. I’m in my fourth year of college, about to graduate, and I can say that the majority of my school experience has been an utter waste. I love learning, and that’s why I’ve never been a great student. In middle school and high school, I spent my free time learning about things that interested me—especially programming. In that time I learned about everything I could because school wasn’t enough. Dynamics and kinematics, geometry, optics, digital signal processing, splines, vector and matrix math, programming language design, lambda calculus, type systems—things no student my age was expected to know or care about. I got high grades whenever I bothered to put in the busywork, but I had little reason to. Points and grades aren’t worth anything. Pretending that grades have intrinsic value is toxic to learning and innovative thinking. You get what the teacher explains straight away, and want to move on? Not allowed: you have to go at everyone else’s pace. You want to know more about a related topic? Too bad: you have to follow the curriculum. You want to do projects with real-world value? As if! You have to do homework and memorise information—sadly, the kind of information that might have deep meaning to you if it were framed in another way. I do think losing points for late assignments is fair, though. It inconveniences the person doing the grading, and in the real world, lateness isn’t tolerable. Besides, if you don’t follow the (meaningless) directions, you should expect (meaningless) punishment. But here’s the thing: would I have bothered to learn on my own if I hadn’t had the insufficient school system to piss me off? Somehow, I think not.
- jarrettcoggin 15y ago
  You don't have to go at the same pace as everyone else.If you want to sit through the class, sure you can do that, or you can ask the teacher/advisor/dean what it takes to test out of the class. Go buy the book and go through all the examples and you should be able to test out of the class most of the time. I did this with one of my classes, and if I were to go back to school, I'd try to do this with every class that I could except research classes.
  - evincarofautumn 15y ago
    I was never allowed to test out of classes. I always asked when I felt it was reasonable, and always met with the same response. Though I did have a couple of great professors who would stay with me after class occasionally to talk about whatever I was working on at the time.
DanBC 15y ago
> He suggested to use what teachers ask as a starting point You need to do this whatever you're doing. Learning at school? Learn more than you need for the test. Learning at university / college? Learn more than you get in lectures. Reading a newspaper? Learn more than they tell you. Reading reports of research? Learn more about the research used. > but ithe project actively shows students, “Here’s a concrete application of what I’m teaching that you can benefit from.” BAH! Knowledge for knowledge's sake is a good thing. Clever exploration of unknowns is an important driver for science. The most well known example of this is Feynman. If you haven't read his books I thoroughly recommend them. He sees something, and wonders why it happens, and then goes off to try to understand it. He was a genius, and so his observations and explorations were usually of interesting things that involved high level science, often unknown at that time. But it's a useful principle. > Following directions has no intrinsic value: it’s a means to an end. For example, why do students lose points for late homework? In what way is homework less valuable the day after it was due, besides a rule that just says so? Unfortunately a lot of your school colleagues are going to end up in the kind of jobs where "following directions" is all that's required. Here is an important lesson: Sometimes you will have an idiot for a boss. That boss will tell you to do something. S/he will tell you to do it in a certain way. You will know, and have facts and evidence to support you that you're being asked to do something stupid, or in a stupid way. You might even be able to put a monetary figure on it - "doing this will cost us $X every month!". It is very frustrating, but sometimes NO ONE CARES. All they care about is the fact that you did what you were asked. Also, getting work done early is usually a good thing. Learning to plan and prioritise work is an important life lesson, so learning to hand it in on time (with gentle penalties for lateness) is important. Often late doesn't mean "minus one point" it means "tough shit you blew it". Good luck though, you sound motivated and committed.
quanticle 15y ago
For example, why do students lose points for late homework? In what way is homework less valuable the day after it was due, besides a rule that just says so? The point isn't to demonstrate the value of the homework. As you just stated, the homework itself often has very little intrinsic value. The value is to get you used to dealing with deadlines. Do you really think that your boss is going to let you miss deadline after deadline without a credible reason? Even if you don't have "boss" in the traditional sense (e.g. if you're doing a startup) do you think your investors are going to let you miss multiple ship dates without consequence? You might not like it, but that's the way the world works. People need to plan ahead, and they need your products, assignments, code, or whatever by a certain date, otherwise it affects their plans. In the case of your teacher, he or she isn't assigning the deadline to be arbitrary or capricious. He or she is making the assignment due by a particular date so that he or she can get it graded and back to you in a timely manner. Submitting assignments whenever might be okay if you're the only one in the class. But if you take your attitude and multiply it out by the twenty, thirty (or sometimes even forty) other students he or she has to teach, it's a recipe for chaos.
- mseebach 15y ago
  It's about respecting other people. That's why it feels crappy to have put in effort to meet a deadline, only to learn that your work is sitting untouched in an inbox for days: The respect wasn't repaid.
davidwparker 15y ago
While I agree with the concept, I also agree with blindhippo saying that the author doesn't know enough to know what they don't know. "A self-taught man usually has a poor teacher and a worse student." - Henny Youngman
joejohnson 15y ago
I think the author makes some good points, but for the wrong reasons. A lot of the issues he complains about (lateness policies, taking the "fun" out of learning, ...) stem from other skills that HS is attempting to teach. He is correct in assuming that these skills are important for a student entering college. However, I think he was on the right track when he wrote "High school isn’t educational because it incentivizes a credential only meaningful to universities instead of educating students." This isn't entirely true; high school students will learn things that will be useful even if they don't attend college. But much of the material of a high school education (and the way it is taught) supports the college-preparatory model. Many students would do well to enter a trade school at an earlier age. Perhaps the US high school education system could be streamlined if students decide which track they were on earlier. Students who were set on college would continue with the traditional HS model, while trade school students could begin vocational training at age 16 or 17. The real root of this issue is that there is a demand for workers (in the US economy) with skills above that of a HS diploma, but below that of a bachelors degree. These certifications are specialized trade skills. These jobs are relatively well-paying and continue an American economic tradition of entry-level jobs which enable workers to work their way into the middle class. However, trade schools are looked down upon. Many people go to college and end up working in jobs which they are (supposedly) over qualified for. We need to refocus our entire education system on what matters, and the perception of these non-college degrees will change.

42 points by Jarred 15y ago

This reminds me of a quote I enjoyed enough to write down: "The difference between the university graduate and the autodidact lies not so much in the extent of knowledge as in the extent of vitality and self-confidence." - Milan Kundera (The Unbearable lightness of being)

andrewfelix 15y ago

"Good teachers actively demonstrate why what they’re teaching is interesting/useful/insightful." A lot of what you learn has benefits beyond being obviously useful and insightful. It teaches you how to think. I hated maths and couldn't understand the practical purposes of it. However it helped me develop a way to think about problem solving much later in life. I hated ancient history, What possible benefit does understanding the battle of Troy have to do with me getting a job? It helped teach me critical thinking, which is incredibly important. While I agree there are problems with modern western education, you've just taken a few of personal anecdotes and written off thousands of useful programs.

victork2 15y ago

Hi, I respect you point of view but... it won't hold for high level education. Let me explain why: * I just wish people could forget the idea that Math is fun. It is not. It's interesting, but it's not fun and can be totally counter intuitive, thus there is no "fun" way to demonstrate it. You are mentioning about Geometry but the geometry you are talking about is a very very very tiny subset of what geometry is at a higher level. It's not an topic from Geometry but for example how do you demonstrate that the ensemble of invertible matrix is dense in the set of R(n,n) matrix in a visual manner? These concepts are so abstract that they become too hard to demonstrate. Achilles tendon of most american students I have known and I have worked with is that they are extremely dependent of a representation of what they are dealing with and they struggle with very abstract concept while in the Russian/ French/ Chinese education teachers teach very early to student to manipulate abstract objects (4-D vectors, advanced algebra etc... are often seen in high school). * The "get less point if you hand back the report late" is actually a good thing for your students. Read one of the Dan Ariely book that showed that this pace helps students study and in the end they end up having better marks. That's the sad human psychology. * For the theorem you need to learn to be a programmer I agree, you don't need them to be a decent coder. However... there's a say among lawyers: "A good lawyer knows the law, an excellent lawyer knows the judge". If you want to be a great programmer sometimes tools at your disposal fall short and... it's your turn to create. This is the moment where theorems become really important and a great programmer will know how to leverage them whereas a decent programmer will fall short. "A good programmer knows the tools, an excellent programmer knows the theorems" !

peter_l_downs 15y ago
To be fair, the author only claims to talk about high school.
Brashman 15y ago
I think this extends some of your same ideas: You can't always learn with the expectation that everything has a perfectly applicable use case (i.e the point about learning Geometry to build a renderer). This may be fine if all you want to do is (re-)implement things that have been done before but if you want to develop new things and solve new problems, you won't know beforehand what tools and what theory will lend to the solution. I'm doing a PhD now and I will take classes and read papers outside of my focus to see if anything will lend itself to my research. Much of this doesn't go anywhere until one day I go, "this problems kinds of sounds like what they did in [that other field]". Also, many complex topics build upon many, many smaller results. I've found this true for large portions of math. Many readily applicable theorems, for example with applications in signal processing and control systems, require many years of math background and maturity. It's very difficult on the onset to connect the basics to the complex theories. (On a personal note, I've found that I had a relatively extensive math background as an undergrad. You could argue that the extra math I did was not worthwhile as it isn't all applicable. However, in some of the classes I've taken in grad school, I've noticed the gap in math background and familiarity as other students try to catch up.) That said, I do admire the OP for taking hold of his education. I did not find my high school education, targeted at the average or at most students, to be well-suited for myself. I would just say that there's a reason the topics and material chosen are what they are. Extending what's done in school is a great idea, but if you are going to deviate, make sure you have a very good idea of what you are deviating from (and why).
unimpressive 15y ago
> I just wish people could forget the idea that Math is fun. It is not. It's interesting, but it's not fun and can be totally counter intuitive, thus there is no "fun" way to demonstrate it. (Disclosure: I haven't read the OP, or the rest of your post really beyond this sentence. I skimmed.) (Double disclosure: I too am in high school.) An emphasis on "fun" is one of the most misleading concepts in trying to get people to pay attention. Some things can be gamified, others well...not so much. (See: Educational games: The bane of every elementary school kids existence.) In a way it's almost profane. Trying to make things interesting by making them fun when the underlying concept is already interesting. It's just that you have to focus on it in a small picture, so it makes it hard to see the bigger concepts that it's a part of. (Objectively I know that if I read through mathematics texts long enough it gets non-trivial and interesting, but actually doing that is so painful as to be impossible. (Impossible in the "I see no way to do it." sense of the word.)) Objectively I also know that I'll be mediocre at any sort of CS effort until I take the plunge. Still not motivating. Other things are just too distracting. I almost feel I should just unplug my Ethernet cable and hide it until I emerge a hacker.

tomjen3 15y ago

That is a good start, but you should also take responsibility for the rest of your life. In fact, everybody should do this. It is called being an adult.

blindhippo 15y ago

The author doesn't know enough to know what they don't know. A high school student doesn't have enough knowledge nor experience to be writing essays on educational theories. This entire post reads as a "I didn't get taught the way I thought I should, so I'm mad about it" rant. Get your diploma, get a degree and come back in 5 years when you've got some solid education and life experience. You might be able to figure out why the education system is setup the way it is after that (hint: it isn't setup to promote effective education).

typicalrunt 15y ago

It's all a journey. Some good, some bad. I believe everyone needs to start that journey but not everyone needs to see it to completion. Naively, I like to think that nobody should look back on high school, university, or anything until many years AFTER it has completed. Only then have you progressed far enough away from the experience to make an objective view of it.

draggnar 15y ago

Today's Calvin and Hobbes is relevant: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2012/04/02 http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2012/04/02

tkahn6 15y ago
In my experience the institution itself (the state-mandated curriculum, the teachers, other students) is the limiting reagent, not the individual student who wants a meaningful education. There's only so much you can do when everyone around you wants to know if "this is going to be on the test?" rather than "is there a deeper meaning to what this character said?".
- deleted 15y ago
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- sopooneo 15y ago
  Keep in mind that there are lot's of ways for a school to be bad. I'm always frustrated when people say "the problem with education in this country..." and then list the particulars of their experience. There is a vast diversity of dysfunction ranging from crumbling physical plant to horrible teachers and sometimes lousy parents and lazy students. There are also some phenomenal public schools in the United States.

mortuus 15y ago

The author looks to be planning a future post on how he plans to take on this responsibility. Can anyone (who feels that they have 'taken full responsibility') share what path they have forged?

davegauer 15y ago
Over the last fifteen years, I have taken full responsibility for my own education. Reading has played the most fundamental role in my education. I have always loved learning from well-written books. At times, it might have been a disadvantage to not have a mentor to guide my progress or to answer questions. I'm certainly not a "gifted" learner and I have often spent long hours trying to understand a page of a book. But it is always incredibly satisfying when I finally do. I think the most rewarding thing about taking responsibility for your own learning is gaining both humility and confidence. I am humbled by the amount of things I still have yet to learn in the enormous field of computer science. But I have also gained an enormous confidence in my _ability_ to learn. I know, from fifteen years of experience, that I can learn anything I want to as long as I apply myself. Another benefit is that books are far cheaper than classrooms, they're portable, they go at your pace (you can turn the pages as quickly or slowly as you want), and you can keep them on a shelf to refer to for the rest of your life. And e-books are even better!

peter_l_downs 15y ago

> By officially going to a public high school, students cede a > large portion of their responsibility for their education to the school. > In other words, if you aren’t learning much, it’s the school’s fault. I'm a senior at a public high school, and I absolutely disagree. The onus to learn always falls on the individual. I refuse to believe that there is a student anywhere that really wants to learn but cannot. Libraries and the internet are always available, as are other people — all of these resources can be learned from. The author seems unhappy with their high school experience. Public schooling may have its flaws, but to blame one's lack of an education on one's school would be misguided. > For example, a good way of teaching Geometry is to have students write a graphics renderer. No it wouldn't. Not everyone is interested in programming or computer games.

deleted 15y ago
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timwiseman 15y ago
I partially agree. The onus is always on the indivdual. An organized class can provide comraderie, a place to ask questions, guidance, and many other benefits. But in the end, it is always up to the individual to get something out of it. A determined person with some basic resources can learn without a class, and a person who puts no effort in will not learn in even the best class. But as for I refuse to believe that there is a student anywhere that really wants to learn but cannot. That is true, but only to a degree. There remain plenty of places, even in America, where internet access is limited and a young student in particular may not have the resources to get consistent and frequent internet access. Similarly, there are places where the libraries are not accessible in a practical way. A truly determined person, such as Srīnivāsa Rāmānujan can rise above, but they are the exceptions and even Ramanujan got help from people to reach his peak.
- peter_l_downs 15y ago
  > There remain plenty of places, even in America, where internet access is > limited and a young student in particular may not have the resources to > get consistent and frequent internet access. Similarly, there are places > where the libraries are not accessible in a practical way. Ok, I'll concede that there may be cases where it is impossible for a determined individual to learn as much as they want. But in the majority cases, I think the old adage "if there's a will, there's a way" remains applicable.

Jarred 15y ago

From reading the comments here, people seem to think I'm dropping out and don't plan on going to university. Let me clear that up. I'm going to get a Certificate of Profiency (I'm currently waiting for the results). In California, it's legally required to be seen as the equivalent of a high school diploma. It's essentially a GED for people under 18. I plan on going to a high-end university in 1-2 years.

Steko 15y ago
What's going to change at the university? I mean sure they have more variety but aren't they incentivizing a credential? Are the teachers there magically more fun or interested in teaching you?
- blindhippo 15y ago
  The author will find out that not much is different in University. They might even find out that University professors are even LESS incentivized to teach specific students things then grade school teachers are. Strong will and individual drive to learn define great university students - hopefully this kid adheres to that path and capitalizes on the opportunities University will open up for him. But he's currently dropping out of High School and trying an alternate route because it doesn't meet his rather ill informed expectations - if this occurs again at a higher educational institute, he will be making a mistake. One thing I've noticed about recent high school grads: they all seem to think the world should meet their expectations and if not, there is something wrong with everyone else. University is a great place to have that attitude beaten out of you. If you don't come out of University humbled, you didn't go to a good one. Message to the author: university is going to kick your ass - start preparing for it. If you do so, it sounds like you have the attitude and drive to do very well for yourself. But make sure you learn what you don't know before you start to solidify your opinions on things.
jarrettcoggin 15y ago
If you haven't already, I highly recommend you reading Derek Sivers' "There's no Speed Limit" post: http://sivers.org/kimo http://sivers.org/kimo

evincarofautumn 15y ago

I, for one, agree with the author in large part. I’m in my fourth year of college, about to graduate, and I can say that the majority of my school experience has been an utter waste. I love learning, and that’s why I’ve never been a great student. In middle school and high school, I spent my free time learning about things that interested me—especially programming. In that time I learned about everything I could because school wasn’t enough. Dynamics and kinematics, geometry, optics, digital signal processing, splines, vector and matrix math, programming language design, lambda calculus, type systems—things no student my age was expected to know or care about. I got high grades whenever I bothered to put in the busywork, but I had little reason to. Points and grades aren’t worth anything. Pretending that grades have intrinsic value is toxic to learning and innovative thinking. You get what the teacher explains straight away, and want to move on? Not allowed: you have to go at everyone else’s pace. You want to know more about a related topic? Too bad: you have to follow the curriculum. You want to do projects with real-world value? As if! You have to do homework and memorise information—sadly, the kind of information that might have deep meaning to you if it were framed in another way. I do think losing points for late assignments is fair, though. It inconveniences the person doing the grading, and in the real world, lateness isn’t tolerable. Besides, if you don’t follow the (meaningless) directions, you should expect (meaningless) punishment. But here’s the thing: would I have bothered to learn on my own if I hadn’t had the insufficient school system to piss me off? Somehow, I think not.

jarrettcoggin 15y ago
You don't have to go at the same pace as everyone else.If you want to sit through the class, sure you can do that, or you can ask the teacher/advisor/dean what it takes to test out of the class. Go buy the book and go through all the examples and you should be able to test out of the class most of the time. I did this with one of my classes, and if I were to go back to school, I'd try to do this with every class that I could except research classes.
- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  I was never allowed to test out of classes. I always asked when I felt it was reasonable, and always met with the same response. Though I did have a couple of great professors who would stay with me after class occasionally to talk about whatever I was working on at the time.

DanBC 15y ago

> He suggested to use what teachers ask as a starting point You need to do this whatever you're doing. Learning at school? Learn more than you need for the test. Learning at university / college? Learn more than you get in lectures. Reading a newspaper? Learn more than they tell you. Reading reports of research? Learn more about the research used. > but ithe project actively shows students, “Here’s a concrete application of what I’m teaching that you can benefit from.” BAH! Knowledge for knowledge's sake is a good thing. Clever exploration of unknowns is an important driver for science. The most well known example of this is Feynman. If you haven't read his books I thoroughly recommend them. He sees something, and wonders why it happens, and then goes off to try to understand it. He was a genius, and so his observations and explorations were usually of interesting things that involved high level science, often unknown at that time. But it's a useful principle. > Following directions has no intrinsic value: it’s a means to an end. For example, why do students lose points for late homework? In what way is homework less valuable the day after it was due, besides a rule that just says so? Unfortunately a lot of your school colleagues are going to end up in the kind of jobs where "following directions" is all that's required. Here is an important lesson: Sometimes you will have an idiot for a boss. That boss will tell you to do something. S/he will tell you to do it in a certain way. You will know, and have facts and evidence to support you that you're being asked to do something stupid, or in a stupid way. You might even be able to put a monetary figure on it - "doing this will cost us $X every month!". It is very frustrating, but sometimes NO ONE CARES. All they care about is the fact that you did what you were asked. Also, getting work done early is usually a good thing. Learning to plan and prioritise work is an important life lesson, so learning to hand it in on time (with gentle penalties for lateness) is important. Often late doesn't mean "minus one point" it means "tough shit you blew it". Good luck though, you sound motivated and committed.

quanticle 15y ago

For example, why do students lose points for late homework? In what way is homework less valuable the day after it was due, besides a rule that just says so? The point isn't to demonstrate the value of the homework. As you just stated, the homework itself often has very little intrinsic value. The value is to get you used to dealing with deadlines. Do you really think that your boss is going to let you miss deadline after deadline without a credible reason? Even if you don't have "boss" in the traditional sense (e.g. if you're doing a startup) do you think your investors are going to let you miss multiple ship dates without consequence? You might not like it, but that's the way the world works. People need to plan ahead, and they need your products, assignments, code, or whatever by a certain date, otherwise it affects their plans. In the case of your teacher, he or she isn't assigning the deadline to be arbitrary or capricious. He or she is making the assignment due by a particular date so that he or she can get it graded and back to you in a timely manner. Submitting assignments whenever might be okay if you're the only one in the class. But if you take your attitude and multiply it out by the twenty, thirty (or sometimes even forty) other students he or she has to teach, it's a recipe for chaos.

mseebach 15y ago
It's about respecting other people. That's why it feels crappy to have put in effort to meet a deadline, only to learn that your work is sitting untouched in an inbox for days: The respect wasn't repaid.

davidwparker 15y ago

While I agree with the concept, I also agree with blindhippo saying that the author doesn't know enough to know what they don't know. "A self-taught man usually has a poor teacher and a worse student." - Henny Youngman

joejohnson 15y ago

I think the author makes some good points, but for the wrong reasons. A lot of the issues he complains about (lateness policies, taking the "fun" out of learning, ...) stem from other skills that HS is attempting to teach. He is correct in assuming that these skills are important for a student entering college. However, I think he was on the right track when he wrote "High school isn’t educational because it incentivizes a credential only meaningful to universities instead of educating students." This isn't entirely true; high school students will learn things that will be useful even if they don't attend college. But much of the material of a high school education (and the way it is taught) supports the college-preparatory model. Many students would do well to enter a trade school at an earlier age. Perhaps the US high school education system could be streamlined if students decide which track they were on earlier. Students who were set on college would continue with the traditional HS model, while trade school students could begin vocational training at age 16 or 17. The real root of this issue is that there is a demand for workers (in the US economy) with skills above that of a HS diploma, but below that of a bachelors degree. These certifications are specialized trade skills. These jobs are relatively well-paying and continue an American economic tradition of entry-level jobs which enable workers to work their way into the middle class. However, trade schools are looked down upon. Many people go to college and end up working in jobs which they are (supposedly) over qualified for. We need to refocus our entire education system on what matters, and the perception of these non-college degrees will change.