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It seems you don't know the EU has a parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament > Since 19

by nsajko 3y ago

It seems you don't know the EU has a parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament > Since 1979, the Parliament has been directly elected every five years by the citizens of the European Union through universal suffrage.

lttlrck 3y ago
How did you infer that? The council and parliament are two separate bodies.
mongol 3y ago
Pretty rude assumption to make. Nothing in parent's reply indicating anything about that.
ajb 3y ago
I don't know why you would bother to reply if you are going to assume that level of ignorance. Yes,the parliament exists. I have voted for members of it. It is the most democratic part of the EU. The rules give it much more influence than hereto. But it has problems. 1) The Council, which is not so democratic, can veto it 2) The parliament is huge, so each member has very limited influence 3) Because of 2) it has not succeeded in creating an EU 'public sphere' or 'demos'. The 'parties' are just agglomerations of national parties. When you think of EU politicians, who are the big names? They are a) national figures and , b) Commissioners. Rarely do parliamentarians become well known,and usually for some other reason (Eg Nigel Farage). I stand by my statement that the EU would be much more democratic if the council were elected. Firstly, do you really think the US was not more democratic when the Senate became elected? Secondly, it would mean that there were 'big figures' that get elected at an EU level. That would get the pubic much more interested and that is a significant part of what it means to be democratic. It doesn't matter how democratic the rules are of nobody cares.
- jruohonen 3y ago
  Seconded.
- mrmanner 3y ago
  The council is made up by national governments, directly or indirectly elected in elections which typically have far higher participation and better media coverage than the EU parliament elections. I like the EU and I agree that the parliament is important, but I’m not so sure the council is “not so democratic”. Everyone knows the name of their government ministers, many know the names of their national parliamentarians. The commission is where we have the major lack of democracy currently. Not sure how to improve without a massive transfer of power to the Union (e.g. an elected president), but it’s a problem worth solving.
- ajb 3y ago
  (can't reply directly to mrmanner, so adding this here) Formally, yes, the Council represents democratically elected governments, and obviously people have heard of their national politicians. But that doesn't mean it makes the EU democratic. Some things to think about: - When was the last time, if ever, you considered voting against someone at your national level because of how they might vote in the EU council? - How much do you hear about EU council votes in the media, vs national parliamentary votes? (the OP is relatively unusual IMO) The Commission is definitely undemocratic. But it has less power than many believe. It has the right to make proposals, but no power over whether they get adopted. It's more of a civil service in many ways. In my view, the council is the structure that has the most power in the EU. And the national politicians who operate it are content that it remains avenue for back-room deals whose results they can blame on the Commission, rather than being accountable to an electorate.
- arlcode 3y ago
  It's tricky. I think it makes sense that the national policy (set by member states government) is represented in their decisions in the council. Otherwise you could have the weird situation where the elected government and the elected council members work against each others because of mismatched voting cycles (or personalities). That sounds like a recipe for legslative lockup. In the end most fundamental EU "laws" need to be implemented into national law by the same government that is now sending its members to the council. A similar system is in use her in Germany, where the state government send a representative to the upper house.

by nsajko 3y ago

lttlrck 3y ago

How did you infer that? The council and parliament are two separate bodies.

mongol 3y ago

Pretty rude assumption to make. Nothing in parent's reply indicating anything about that.

ajb 3y ago

I don't know why you would bother to reply if you are going to assume that level of ignorance. Yes,the parliament exists. I have voted for members of it. It is the most democratic part of the EU. The rules give it much more influence than hereto. But it has problems. 1) The Council, which is not so democratic, can veto it 2) The parliament is huge, so each member has very limited influence 3) Because of 2) it has not succeeded in creating an EU 'public sphere' or 'demos'. The 'parties' are just agglomerations of national parties. When you think of EU politicians, who are the big names? They are a) national figures and , b) Commissioners. Rarely do parliamentarians become well known,and usually for some other reason (Eg Nigel Farage). I stand by my statement that the EU would be much more democratic if the council were elected. Firstly, do you really think the US was not more democratic when the Senate became elected? Secondly, it would mean that there were 'big figures' that get elected at an EU level. That would get the pubic much more interested and that is a significant part of what it means to be democratic. It doesn't matter how democratic the rules are of nobody cares.

jruohonen 3y ago
Seconded.
mrmanner 3y ago
The council is made up by national governments, directly or indirectly elected in elections which typically have far higher participation and better media coverage than the EU parliament elections. I like the EU and I agree that the parliament is important, but I’m not so sure the council is “not so democratic”. Everyone knows the name of their government ministers, many know the names of their national parliamentarians. The commission is where we have the major lack of democracy currently. Not sure how to improve without a massive transfer of power to the Union (e.g. an elected president), but it’s a problem worth solving.
ajb 3y ago
(can't reply directly to mrmanner, so adding this here) Formally, yes, the Council represents democratically elected governments, and obviously people have heard of their national politicians. But that doesn't mean it makes the EU democratic. Some things to think about: - When was the last time, if ever, you considered voting against someone at your national level because of how they might vote in the EU council? - How much do you hear about EU council votes in the media, vs national parliamentary votes? (the OP is relatively unusual IMO) The Commission is definitely undemocratic. But it has less power than many believe. It has the right to make proposals, but no power over whether they get adopted. It's more of a civil service in many ways. In my view, the council is the structure that has the most power in the EU. And the national politicians who operate it are content that it remains avenue for back-room deals whose results they can blame on the Commission, rather than being accountable to an electorate.
arlcode 3y ago
It's tricky. I think it makes sense that the national policy (set by member states government) is represented in their decisions in the council. Otherwise you could have the weird situation where the elected government and the elected council members work against each others because of mismatched voting cycles (or personalities). That sounds like a recipe for legslative lockup. In the end most fundamental EU "laws" need to be implemented into national law by the same government that is now sending its members to the council. A similar system is in use her in Germany, where the state government send a representative to the upper house.