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The council, where all member states are represented, will vote on this. It's basically like the senate in the US, except the states are represented by ministe

The council, where all member states are represented, will vote on this. It's basically like the senate in the US, except the states are represented by ministers instead of elected senators.

ajb 3y ago
Exactly. It's also worth noting that the US Senate was originally not elected either. The transition to an elected Senate was triggered by two states individually deciding to elect their Senator, then the rest followed. The same could happen in the EU, which would make it much more democratic. And it would only take one country to make the first move.
- nsajko 3y ago
  It seems you don't know the EU has a parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament > Since 1979, the Parliament has been directly elected every five years by the citizens of the European Union through universal suffrage.
  - lttlrck 3y ago
    How did you infer that? The council and parliament are two separate bodies.
  - mongol 3y ago
    Pretty rude assumption to make. Nothing in parent's reply indicating anything about that.
  - ajb 3y ago
    I don't know why you would bother to reply if you are going to assume that level of ignorance. Yes,the parliament exists. I have voted for members of it. It is the most democratic part of the EU. The rules give it much more influence than hereto. But it has problems. 1) The Council, which is not so democratic, can veto it 2) The parliament is huge, so each member has very limited influence 3) Because of 2) it has not succeeded in creating an EU 'public sphere' or 'demos'. The 'parties' are just agglomerations of national parties. When you think of EU politicians, who are the big names? They are a) national figures and , b) Commissioners. Rarely do parliamentarians become well known,and usually for some other reason (Eg Nigel Farage). I stand by my statement that the EU would be much more democratic if the council were elected. Firstly, do you really think the US was not more democratic when the Senate became elected? Secondly, it would mean that there were 'big figures' that get elected at an EU level. That would get the pubic much more interested and that is a significant part of what it means to be democratic. It doesn't matter how democratic the rules are of nobody cares.
    - jruohonen 3y ago
      Seconded.
    - mrmanner 3y ago
      The council is made up by national governments, directly or indirectly elected in elections which typically have far higher participation and better media coverage than the EU parliament elections. I like the EU and I agree that the parliament is important, but I’m not so sure the council is “not so democratic”. Everyone knows the name of their government ministers, many know the names of their national parliamentarians. The commission is where we have the major lack of democracy currently. Not sure how to improve without a massive transfer of power to the Union (e.g. an elected president), but it’s a problem worth solving.
    - ajb 3y ago
      (can't reply directly to mrmanner, so adding this here) Formally, yes, the Council represents democratically elected governments, and obviously people have heard of their national politicians. But that doesn't mean it makes the EU democratic. Some things to think about: - When was the last time, if ever, you considered voting against someone at your national level because of how they might vote in the EU council? - How much do you hear about EU council votes in the media, vs national parliamentary votes? (the OP is relatively unusual IMO) The Commission is definitely undemocratic. But it has less power than many believe. It has the right to make proposals, but no power over whether they get adopted. It's more of a civil service in many ways. In my view, the council is the structure that has the most power in the EU. And the national politicians who operate it are content that it remains avenue for back-room deals whose results they can blame on the Commission, rather than being accountable to an electorate.
    - arlcode 3y ago
      It's tricky. I think it makes sense that the national policy (set by member states government) is represented in their decisions in the council. Otherwise you could have the weird situation where the elected government and the elected council members work against each others because of mismatched voting cycles (or personalities). That sounds like a recipe for legslative lockup. In the end most fundamental EU "laws" need to be implemented into national law by the same government that is now sending its members to the council. A similar system is in use her in Germany, where the state government send a representative to the upper house.
- mrmanner 3y ago
  Interesting about the US senate! I'm not sure that an EU member state can unilaterally make a similar decision though. The treaty is pretty clear that the council is made up by government ministers: > Citizens are directly represented at Union level in the European Parliament. > Member States are represented in the European Council by their Heads of State or Government and in the Council by their governments, themselves democratically accountable either to their national Parliaments, or to their citizens.
  - ajb 3y ago
    It's true that the wording runs like that. But here's the angle: the Council is the body intended to represent the member states, so the member states are the ones who get to decide who is going to represent them in council. At the moment, that's usually the minister for the subject under discussion. It's true that on those occasions where it is the head of state, you probably can't get round sending your head of state (and probably wouldn't want to). But if a member state decides they are going to define their own rules such that it's an elected representative that gets sent the rest of the time, the rest of the EU shouldn't be able to overrule it, because that would defeat the purpose of the role being one that is under control of a member state.
- hef19898 3y ago
  First move to do what? Have the electorate vote cabinet members?
  - ajb 3y ago
    Have the electorate vote for who gets sent to represent them at the EU council. The council isn't exactly a 'Cabinet' right now - in fact, the Commission is more like a Cabinet than the council. Electing a commissioner would be another option, but the head of the commission can reject them, so it's not under the control of the member state.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      But the council is made up of cabinet members from memeber state governments, isn't it?
      - ajb 3y ago
        My comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37892571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37892571 addresses this

The council, where all member states are represented, will vote on this. It's basically like the senate in the US, except the states are represented by ministers instead of elected senators.

ajb 3y ago

Exactly. It's also worth noting that the US Senate was originally not elected either. The transition to an elected Senate was triggered by two states individually deciding to elect their Senator, then the rest followed. The same could happen in the EU, which would make it much more democratic. And it would only take one country to make the first move.

nsajko 3y ago
It seems you don't know the EU has a parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament > Since 1979, the Parliament has been directly elected every five years by the citizens of the European Union through universal suffrage.
- lttlrck 3y ago
  How did you infer that? The council and parliament are two separate bodies.
- mongol 3y ago
  Pretty rude assumption to make. Nothing in parent's reply indicating anything about that.
- ajb 3y ago
  I don't know why you would bother to reply if you are going to assume that level of ignorance. Yes,the parliament exists. I have voted for members of it. It is the most democratic part of the EU. The rules give it much more influence than hereto. But it has problems. 1) The Council, which is not so democratic, can veto it 2) The parliament is huge, so each member has very limited influence 3) Because of 2) it has not succeeded in creating an EU 'public sphere' or 'demos'. The 'parties' are just agglomerations of national parties. When you think of EU politicians, who are the big names? They are a) national figures and , b) Commissioners. Rarely do parliamentarians become well known,and usually for some other reason (Eg Nigel Farage). I stand by my statement that the EU would be much more democratic if the council were elected. Firstly, do you really think the US was not more democratic when the Senate became elected? Secondly, it would mean that there were 'big figures' that get elected at an EU level. That would get the pubic much more interested and that is a significant part of what it means to be democratic. It doesn't matter how democratic the rules are of nobody cares.
  - jruohonen 3y ago
    Seconded.
  - mrmanner 3y ago
    The council is made up by national governments, directly or indirectly elected in elections which typically have far higher participation and better media coverage than the EU parliament elections. I like the EU and I agree that the parliament is important, but I’m not so sure the council is “not so democratic”. Everyone knows the name of their government ministers, many know the names of their national parliamentarians. The commission is where we have the major lack of democracy currently. Not sure how to improve without a massive transfer of power to the Union (e.g. an elected president), but it’s a problem worth solving.
  - ajb 3y ago
    (can't reply directly to mrmanner, so adding this here) Formally, yes, the Council represents democratically elected governments, and obviously people have heard of their national politicians. But that doesn't mean it makes the EU democratic. Some things to think about: - When was the last time, if ever, you considered voting against someone at your national level because of how they might vote in the EU council? - How much do you hear about EU council votes in the media, vs national parliamentary votes? (the OP is relatively unusual IMO) The Commission is definitely undemocratic. But it has less power than many believe. It has the right to make proposals, but no power over whether they get adopted. It's more of a civil service in many ways. In my view, the council is the structure that has the most power in the EU. And the national politicians who operate it are content that it remains avenue for back-room deals whose results they can blame on the Commission, rather than being accountable to an electorate.
  - arlcode 3y ago
    It's tricky. I think it makes sense that the national policy (set by member states government) is represented in their decisions in the council. Otherwise you could have the weird situation where the elected government and the elected council members work against each others because of mismatched voting cycles (or personalities). That sounds like a recipe for legslative lockup. In the end most fundamental EU "laws" need to be implemented into national law by the same government that is now sending its members to the council. A similar system is in use her in Germany, where the state government send a representative to the upper house.
mrmanner 3y ago
Interesting about the US senate! I'm not sure that an EU member state can unilaterally make a similar decision though. The treaty is pretty clear that the council is made up by government ministers: > Citizens are directly represented at Union level in the European Parliament. > Member States are represented in the European Council by their Heads of State or Government and in the Council by their governments, themselves democratically accountable either to their national Parliaments, or to their citizens.
- ajb 3y ago
  It's true that the wording runs like that. But here's the angle: the Council is the body intended to represent the member states, so the member states are the ones who get to decide who is going to represent them in council. At the moment, that's usually the minister for the subject under discussion. It's true that on those occasions where it is the head of state, you probably can't get round sending your head of state (and probably wouldn't want to). But if a member state decides they are going to define their own rules such that it's an elected representative that gets sent the rest of the time, the rest of the EU shouldn't be able to overrule it, because that would defeat the purpose of the role being one that is under control of a member state.
hef19898 3y ago
First move to do what? Have the electorate vote cabinet members?
- ajb 3y ago
  Have the electorate vote for who gets sent to represent them at the EU council. The council isn't exactly a 'Cabinet' right now - in fact, the Commission is more like a Cabinet than the council. Electing a commissioner would be another option, but the head of the commission can reject them, so it's not under the control of the member state.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    But the council is made up of cabinet members from memeber state governments, isn't it?
    - ajb 3y ago
      My comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37892571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37892571 addresses this