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We don't need laws against junk fees. Undisclosed fees are fraud. We need litigation and prosecution over fraud.

losteric 3y ago
What would you consider credit card fees? Those are variable hidden costs that are passed on to all customers of that establishment - including cash payers.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  I would like credit card fees to be prominently displayed on POS at checkout with the option to opt out by using debit be very obvious. Perhaps two prices, one Total with Cash/Debit and another Total with Credit. It’s kind of the opposite situation of the OP in that it’s priced in everywhere in the total advertised price so it’s not fraud in the same way, but it’s still an issue that’s related but tangential
balls187 3y ago
What makes a fee undisclosed? If a restaurant raises food prices by 10% to pay for healthcare, is that an undisclosed fee?
- ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
  If they list their real raised prices on the menu, it is not undisclosed. If they expect customers to magically know about the extra fee ahead of time, and add it to the bill after the meal, it is undisclosed.
- gavinsyancey 3y ago
  If the prices on the menu are just 10% higher, this is fine. You know what you're getting in to and can always decide to order something cheaper or not eat there. If the prices on the menu are the same, but there's a note at the bottom of the menu saying "additional 10% fee to support our workers' healthcare" (or something similar) they are technically telling you, but this is certainly misleading (possible to miss the note, and it's harder to do math) and is very annoying. I've noticed several restaurants doing this. The new CA law explicitly bans this practice. If the prices are the same and you aren't notified until you get the bill, this is highly unethical and IMO fraud. There's a restaurant near me that does this; they offer to remove the fee if you notice and complain, but also try to guilt you into paying. The new CA law bans this too.
- bradleyjg 3y ago
  If a restaurant raises food prices by 10% to pay for healthcare, is that an undisclosed fee? No, a restaurant can charge whatever it likes. What’s fraud is if the menu says an orange juice is $3 but then when the bill comes it’s $3.30 because there’s a 10% healthcare fee the restaurant didn’t list on the menu. If the restaurant did list the fee on the menu, it’s a gray area. Depends on how prominently, etc. In any event a dark pattern. If the prices include the 10% increase and there’s a note that says prices were recently increased to cover healthcare, again perfectly ok. Good even.
infogulch 3y ago
Adding taxes on at the end is 'junk fees' in this sense and should also be banned. Here's the principle: The price on the sticker (or menu, or display) is the price you pay. Period. Additional fees or calculations on above simple summation of the items ordered is anti-consumer. You're the business, calculate the total up front and don't make me memorize the tax rate in every locality and do a bunch of multiplications in my head while I'm browsing your store. If I were cynical I'd say this whole charade is intentionally designed to exhaust the customer with math to make them give up and not think about the price until they're at the register and have to face the embarrassment of asking to take things off. Making the real price opaque is the point. It's gross even if it doesn't work 100% of customers. There's probably even a case to be made that this disproportionately disadvantages people with mental disabilities. And don't bother making some stupid argument about adding up fractional pennies. If you need more decimal places then use them, and the customer will decide up front whether it's reasonable to make them calculate 3-4 decimal places for the product you're selling. They don't do this nonsense in Europe. Taxes are pre-calculated on every item, so you can walk through the isles of the grocery store picking up items simply adding up the sticker price and know that the cash in your pocket will be enough to pay the total. Why we tolerate calculating tax at the end of a transaction is crazy.
- ikr678 3y ago
  Add tipping to this, and it becomes very tiring as a tourist in the US trying to figure out what anything costs. If I have $20 in my pocket, I have no idea if that will cover a $15 lunch deal(after taxes, service charges and tip). I have tried to ask at resturants before ordering what a meal will 'actually' cost me and only recieved a blank stare. Of course, if you are a business, having your market tolerate obsfucated pricing models is a feature, not a bug.

What would you consider credit card fees? Those are variable hidden costs that are passed on to all customers of that establishment - including cash payers.

SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
I would like credit card fees to be prominently displayed on POS at checkout with the option to opt out by using debit be very obvious. Perhaps two prices, one Total with Cash/Debit and another Total with Credit. It’s kind of the opposite situation of the OP in that it’s priced in everywhere in the total advertised price so it’s not fraud in the same way, but it’s still an issue that’s related but tangential

balls187 3y ago

What makes a fee undisclosed? If a restaurant raises food prices by 10% to pay for healthcare, is that an undisclosed fee?

ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
If they list their real raised prices on the menu, it is not undisclosed. If they expect customers to magically know about the extra fee ahead of time, and add it to the bill after the meal, it is undisclosed.
gavinsyancey 3y ago
If the prices on the menu are just 10% higher, this is fine. You know what you're getting in to and can always decide to order something cheaper or not eat there. If the prices on the menu are the same, but there's a note at the bottom of the menu saying "additional 10% fee to support our workers' healthcare" (or something similar) they are technically telling you, but this is certainly misleading (possible to miss the note, and it's harder to do math) and is very annoying. I've noticed several restaurants doing this. The new CA law explicitly bans this practice. If the prices are the same and you aren't notified until you get the bill, this is highly unethical and IMO fraud. There's a restaurant near me that does this; they offer to remove the fee if you notice and complain, but also try to guilt you into paying. The new CA law bans this too.
bradleyjg 3y ago
If a restaurant raises food prices by 10% to pay for healthcare, is that an undisclosed fee? No, a restaurant can charge whatever it likes. What’s fraud is if the menu says an orange juice is $3 but then when the bill comes it’s $3.30 because there’s a 10% healthcare fee the restaurant didn’t list on the menu. If the restaurant did list the fee on the menu, it’s a gray area. Depends on how prominently, etc. In any event a dark pattern. If the prices include the 10% increase and there’s a note that says prices were recently increased to cover healthcare, again perfectly ok. Good even.

infogulch 3y ago

Adding taxes on at the end is 'junk fees' in this sense and should also be banned. Here's the principle: The price on the sticker (or menu, or display) is the price you pay. Period. Additional fees or calculations on above simple summation of the items ordered is anti-consumer. You're the business, calculate the total up front and don't make me memorize the tax rate in every locality and do a bunch of multiplications in my head while I'm browsing your store. If I were cynical I'd say this whole charade is intentionally designed to exhaust the customer with math to make them give up and not think about the price until they're at the register and have to face the embarrassment of asking to take things off. Making the real price opaque is the point. It's gross even if it doesn't work 100% of customers. There's probably even a case to be made that this disproportionately disadvantages people with mental disabilities. And don't bother making some stupid argument about adding up fractional pennies. If you need more decimal places then use them, and the customer will decide up front whether it's reasonable to make them calculate 3-4 decimal places for the product you're selling. They don't do this nonsense in Europe. Taxes are pre-calculated on every item, so you can walk through the isles of the grocery store picking up items simply adding up the sticker price and know that the cash in your pocket will be enough to pay the total. Why we tolerate calculating tax at the end of a transaction is crazy.

ikr678 3y ago
Add tipping to this, and it becomes very tiring as a tourist in the US trying to figure out what anything costs. If I have $20 in my pocket, I have no idea if that will cover a $15 lunch deal(after taxes, service charges and tip). I have tried to ask at resturants before ordering what a meal will 'actually' cost me and only recieved a blank stare. Of course, if you are a business, having your market tolerate obsfucated pricing models is a feature, not a bug.