7 ms·

I think there needs to be stronger social norms around this. Sometimes I get sucked in to nonsense topics too, although recently I've gotten a lot better at not

I think there needs to be stronger social norms around this. Sometimes I get sucked in to nonsense topics too, although recently I've gotten a lot better at noticing and stopping myself from going down the rabbit hole. It would help a lot if you had support networks to nudge you in the right direction. For me it's often as simple as asking "why do you even care about this?" or "why is this so important to you?". And that realization and consideration can often snap people out. As someone who participates a lot in online discussions, sometimes people get into really unproductive discourse which keeps going around in circles, so I think it's useful to have norms around refocusing the conversation and reminding people of their core values. It's also useful to give yourself a limit to how deeply you're willing to engage on certain topics with Internet strangers, especially if you don't see the conversation going anywhere productive or meaningful after a while. The ability to walk away is a superpower. When you achieve enlightenment you gain the ability to let people be wrong on the internet without it bothering you.

Obscurity4340 3y ago
Gonna have to try this one ("Why do you even care/talk about this shit so much? What's the issue?")
- johnchristopher 3y ago
  I am genuinely curious why you went from: > "why do you even care about this?" or "why is this so important to you?" to > "Why do you even care/talk about this shit so much? What's the issue?" I see it a lot online ; as a mean of emphasis I think but it doesn't sound better to me. This: > "why do you even care about this?" or "why is this so important to you?" doesn't mean we stop the conversation, thinking about why the issue is important to us sometimes means we give a more pertinent/deep answer.
  - Teever 3y ago
    Some people just talk like that. I would imagine that to OP the purpose of using the world 'shit' isn't condescending or to detract fro the importance of the topic, it's meant to be more personable, to directly engage the person you're talking with in a casual way. I find that HN often penalizes users when they write the way that people often speak.
    - thimkerbell 3y ago
      not to strangers.
    - johnchristopher 3y ago
      > Some people just talk like that. Well, I can live with that but I don't think it extends to writings on forums, social networks, the internet at large. Of course it depends of the audience (as always) (pluss the medium is the message). > I would imagine that to OP the purpose of using the world 'shit' isn't condescending or to detract fro the importance of the topic, it's meant to be more personable, to directly engage the person you're talking with in a casual way. There's that. There's also the possibility of implying that any online discourse is shit (which is an opinion I can hear yet disagree with but ok). > I find that HN often penalizes users when they write the way that people often speak. Written and oral English aren't exactly the same language although they have a lot in common (at the very least the rules differ a bit). I'd venture to guess that sentence structures and overall discourse (I mean: the way they use the language to achieve communication, not the grammatical rules to form comprehensive sentences) of someone who swears still show differences between oral and written expression. Anyway, I am guilty of downvoting comments with too much swear words (because it's noise to me and it's distracting from the topic at hand, either because I have to factor the wow factor into the arguments or to ignore it when it's just how people express themselves). Funny thing that happened once: I added a "and... language please ?" in my reply to a comment with foul language and the counter reply was "what are you... a child ?". I left it at that but that's precisely because I am an adult that I don't want to discuss using too much swear words.. but I can see how the reverse could be valid for someone else. In real life, I swear wayyyyyy too much.
      - Loughla 3y ago
        To me, swear words are like salt and pepper. Some good meals (professional conversations) don't need them. Basic meals (casual conversation) are almost always better with them. Too much is bad for your heart, but they tend to improve the flavor of a discourse.
      - Obscurity4340 3y ago
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    TBH I honestly don't get this entire line of inquiry. Are you fighting against slang or mordern internet culture, what and why is something unreasonably at issue here with entire disregard to the subtance rather than form of input?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
If an imaginary bored teenage version of yourself ran across what you wrote, at 6 PM on a Thursday night, would they read it with interest or at least amusement? That's my personal limit.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
> "why do you even care about this?" or "why is this so important to you?" This is my tactic as well. I'm in New England and a coworker was once distraught that someone dismantled a statue in the south. I asked if they had any idea that the statue existed beforehand? They did not.
- exoverito 3y ago
  I would imagine it's less about any given statue and more about it being indicative of a kind of cultural revolution. It's not necessarily a bad tactic, though imagine asking people if they knew George Floyd existed before the video. If people followed that heuristic and didn't get worked up into a frenzy then we wouldn't have had the riots and largest YoY increase in homicides in US history. Though I think the video was more a catalyst for unleashing the pent up frustrations of a populace forced under house arrest, living in fear of a virus, economic uncertainty, etc.
  - metabagel 3y ago
    A person’s life has value, even if we aren’t aware of them.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      So does a statue, just not as much.
- dymk 3y ago
  "Why is this so important to you?" only works if you're asking someone who isn't already having an emotional knee-jerk reaction to something. Once they're past that state, questioning their position will probably just lead to them doubling down.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- diego_sandoval 3y ago
  But maybe they did have a good reason to be distraught, they just couldn't articulate it.
thimkerbell 3y ago
We need the equivalent of tl;dr for concise communication, for intellectual mood, to mean "Disagree (or there's nuance needed here) but declining to engage." Maybe "Thanks but no"? And it should be present anyplace there's a Like button. There should also be a way for the writer to get a sense for whether it's coming from people whose judgment they respect. (And (someday maybe) also a way to offer to compensate someone for their time, if they'll explain.) But all of this is predicated on social media remaining viable.
- dullcrisp 3y ago
  I usually wind up using sarcasm for this purpose (and perhaps to make a brief point). I’m not suggesting that everyone use sarcasm with abandon, but I think it has its place. I appreciate the need for clarity in writing, but I worry that our idealization of workmanlike language greatly narrows the range of what we can convey. People have been communicating in writing for centuries and have invented a wealth of literary devices to communicate their thoughts more completely.
  - metabagel 3y ago
    I try to avoid sarcasm. I try to respond dispassionately and to pick one key part of their argument and say why I disagree with it. Or if I think they are being unhelpful with their tone, I tell them so. I do use sarcasm sometimes, but I feel like it is generally an attempt to score a win in an argument, not to persuade. And I’m not generally trying to persuade the person I am responding to, but the lurkers who read the comments.
    - dullcrisp 3y ago
      Isn’t “winning” an argument the same as making your point in a way that most dispassionate third-party observers would agree with you? I usually hear the dichotomy between winning and persuasion used to mean persuading the person you’re talking to, which might involve weakening your point to appeal to them.
      - 3y ago
figassis 3y ago
I'm often flexible in my beliefs, and I believe this is a superpower, but it can be dangerous if you don't place some principled boundaries on your self, or how much you can allow yourself to be convinced to change your opinion. Rabbit holes can take you all the way to radicalization. This allows me to understand that I might be wrong without having to change my beliefs. What changes is that I simply stop trying to convince others of those beliefs I hold.
- fknorangesite 3y ago
  > I'm often flexible in my beliefs ... but it can be dangerous if you don't place some principled boundaries on your self As the saying goes: have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
  - svieira 3y ago
    "The purpose of opening your mind, as with opening your mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G. K. Chesterton
    - throw__away7391 3y ago
      I don't really agree with this at all. You need to keep possibilities open for forever. I would guess that whoever the author has decided on some opinions he considers "solid" and feels that other people need to come to agree with him. This is hardly a remarkable position.
      - edmundsauto 3y ago
        In my experience, keeping possibilities open has a cost. It’s like leaving a port open on a server just in case, or letting clients idle. All resources, including my attention, are limited. We have to prune our gardens to create space for other things.
        Gud 3y ago
Forgeties79 3y ago
It is wild how difficult it is to break out of the cycle. When I really put my mind to it I can “be good” for a few weeks, but all it takes is one bad discussion to get me to act a little more hostile than I should. And sometimes that’s all it takes for me to backslide again for months. I wish I could say I was more mature than that, but I’m simply not. Or at least I’m not at this stage. Lately I have been trying again to turn over a new leaf, and so far I think I’m doing OK? But it has only been like a week so we will see lol One of my favorite “methods” or whatever you want to call it I learned years ago, I believe on Reddit. This is also broadly applicable to most social situations in which you are deciding whether or not to broach a certain subject. You ask yourself three questions, all three of which must be satisfied before you say whatever it is you were thinking: 1) Does it need to be said? 2) Does it need to be said by me? 3) Does it need to be said by me right now?

Obscurity4340 3y ago

Gonna have to try this one ("Why do you even care/talk about this shit so much? What's the issue?")

johnchristopher 3y ago
I am genuinely curious why you went from: > "why do you even care about this?" or "why is this so important to you?" to > "Why do you even care/talk about this shit so much? What's the issue?" I see it a lot online ; as a mean of emphasis I think but it doesn't sound better to me. This: > "why do you even care about this?" or "why is this so important to you?" doesn't mean we stop the conversation, thinking about why the issue is important to us sometimes means we give a more pertinent/deep answer.
- Teever 3y ago
  Some people just talk like that. I would imagine that to OP the purpose of using the world 'shit' isn't condescending or to detract fro the importance of the topic, it's meant to be more personable, to directly engage the person you're talking with in a casual way. I find that HN often penalizes users when they write the way that people often speak.
  - thimkerbell 3y ago
    not to strangers.
  - johnchristopher 3y ago
    > Some people just talk like that. Well, I can live with that but I don't think it extends to writings on forums, social networks, the internet at large. Of course it depends of the audience (as always) (pluss the medium is the message). > I would imagine that to OP the purpose of using the world 'shit' isn't condescending or to detract fro the importance of the topic, it's meant to be more personable, to directly engage the person you're talking with in a casual way. There's that. There's also the possibility of implying that any online discourse is shit (which is an opinion I can hear yet disagree with but ok). > I find that HN often penalizes users when they write the way that people often speak. Written and oral English aren't exactly the same language although they have a lot in common (at the very least the rules differ a bit). I'd venture to guess that sentence structures and overall discourse (I mean: the way they use the language to achieve communication, not the grammatical rules to form comprehensive sentences) of someone who swears still show differences between oral and written expression. Anyway, I am guilty of downvoting comments with too much swear words (because it's noise to me and it's distracting from the topic at hand, either because I have to factor the wow factor into the arguments or to ignore it when it's just how people express themselves). Funny thing that happened once: I added a "and... language please ?" in my reply to a comment with foul language and the counter reply was "what are you... a child ?". I left it at that but that's precisely because I am an adult that I don't want to discuss using too much swear words.. but I can see how the reverse could be valid for someone else. In real life, I swear wayyyyyy too much.
    - Loughla 3y ago
      To me, swear words are like salt and pepper. Some good meals (professional conversations) don't need them. Basic meals (casual conversation) are almost always better with them. Too much is bad for your heart, but they tend to improve the flavor of a discourse.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  TBH I honestly don't get this entire line of inquiry. Are you fighting against slang or mordern internet culture, what and why is something unreasonably at issue here with entire disregard to the subtance rather than form of input?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago

If an imaginary bored teenage version of yourself ran across what you wrote, at 6 PM on a Thursday night, would they read it with interest or at least amusement? That's my personal limit.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

> "why do you even care about this?" or "why is this so important to you?" This is my tactic as well. I'm in New England and a coworker was once distraught that someone dismantled a statue in the south. I asked if they had any idea that the statue existed beforehand? They did not.

exoverito 3y ago
I would imagine it's less about any given statue and more about it being indicative of a kind of cultural revolution. It's not necessarily a bad tactic, though imagine asking people if they knew George Floyd existed before the video. If people followed that heuristic and didn't get worked up into a frenzy then we wouldn't have had the riots and largest YoY increase in homicides in US history. Though I think the video was more a catalyst for unleashing the pent up frustrations of a populace forced under house arrest, living in fear of a virus, economic uncertainty, etc.
- metabagel 3y ago
  A person’s life has value, even if we aren’t aware of them.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    So does a statue, just not as much.
dymk 3y ago
"Why is this so important to you?" only works if you're asking someone who isn't already having an emotional knee-jerk reaction to something. Once they're past that state, questioning their position will probably just lead to them doubling down.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
diego_sandoval 3y ago
But maybe they did have a good reason to be distraught, they just couldn't articulate it.

thimkerbell 3y ago

We need the equivalent of tl;dr for concise communication, for intellectual mood, to mean "Disagree (or there's nuance needed here) but declining to engage." Maybe "Thanks but no"? And it should be present anyplace there's a Like button. There should also be a way for the writer to get a sense for whether it's coming from people whose judgment they respect. (And (someday maybe) also a way to offer to compensate someone for their time, if they'll explain.) But all of this is predicated on social media remaining viable.

dullcrisp 3y ago
I usually wind up using sarcasm for this purpose (and perhaps to make a brief point). I’m not suggesting that everyone use sarcasm with abandon, but I think it has its place. I appreciate the need for clarity in writing, but I worry that our idealization of workmanlike language greatly narrows the range of what we can convey. People have been communicating in writing for centuries and have invented a wealth of literary devices to communicate their thoughts more completely.
- metabagel 3y ago
  I try to avoid sarcasm. I try to respond dispassionately and to pick one key part of their argument and say why I disagree with it. Or if I think they are being unhelpful with their tone, I tell them so. I do use sarcasm sometimes, but I feel like it is generally an attempt to score a win in an argument, not to persuade. And I’m not generally trying to persuade the person I am responding to, but the lurkers who read the comments.
  - dullcrisp 3y ago
    Isn’t “winning” an argument the same as making your point in a way that most dispassionate third-party observers would agree with you? I usually hear the dichotomy between winning and persuasion used to mean persuading the person you’re talking to, which might involve weakening your point to appeal to them.
    - 3y ago

figassis 3y ago

I'm often flexible in my beliefs, and I believe this is a superpower, but it can be dangerous if you don't place some principled boundaries on your self, or how much you can allow yourself to be convinced to change your opinion. Rabbit holes can take you all the way to radicalization. This allows me to understand that I might be wrong without having to change my beliefs. What changes is that I simply stop trying to convince others of those beliefs I hold.

fknorangesite 3y ago
> I'm often flexible in my beliefs ... but it can be dangerous if you don't place some principled boundaries on your self As the saying goes: have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
- svieira 3y ago
  "The purpose of opening your mind, as with opening your mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." G. K. Chesterton
  - throw__away7391 3y ago
    I don't really agree with this at all. You need to keep possibilities open for forever. I would guess that whoever the author has decided on some opinions he considers "solid" and feels that other people need to come to agree with him. This is hardly a remarkable position.
    - edmundsauto 3y ago
      In my experience, keeping possibilities open has a cost. It’s like leaving a port open on a server just in case, or letting clients idle. All resources, including my attention, are limited. We have to prune our gardens to create space for other things.
      - Gud 3y ago

Forgeties79 3y ago

It is wild how difficult it is to break out of the cycle. When I really put my mind to it I can “be good” for a few weeks, but all it takes is one bad discussion to get me to act a little more hostile than I should. And sometimes that’s all it takes for me to backslide again for months. I wish I could say I was more mature than that, but I’m simply not. Or at least I’m not at this stage. Lately I have been trying again to turn over a new leaf, and so far I think I’m doing OK? But it has only been like a week so we will see lol One of my favorite “methods” or whatever you want to call it I learned years ago, I believe on Reddit. This is also broadly applicable to most social situations in which you are deciding whether or not to broach a certain subject. You ask yourself three questions, all three of which must be satisfied before you say whatever it is you were thinking: 1) Does it need to be said? 2) Does it need to be said by me? 3) Does it need to be said by me right now?