14 ms·

What does friendship look like in America?

56 points by jyunwai 3y ago

xwdv 3y ago
These days it looks a lot like just sending each other memes back and forth on social media.
- jondwillis 3y ago
  Having quit social media for partially that reason, now people either text me memes, or I don’t hear from them as much, or at all. (I memetically refer to social media and memes as “the mind killers” with some friends)
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Dune would've looked a lot different if social media was the mind killer instead.
sououwantchina 3y ago
[flagged]
Probiotic6081 3y ago
Interesting article - if only 15% of American men talk about their mental health with their "close friends" them and I have a different definition of what a friend is!
- spacemadness 3y ago
  Yeah, well, you need to cut through layer upon layer of social conditioning telling you people rely on you to be strong. Not vulnerable, but more like a rock. If you’re going to be sad or some such, we prefer you to show anger instead. Because that shows strength. Overall society is doing its best to keep passing that along to the next generation as a gift that keeps on giving.
  - dash2 3y ago
    Counterpoint. I just met someone who started telling me about their bipolarity within the first five minutes of meeting. It was pretty obviously functioning as a trophy for them. This is a pretty stereotypical kind of modern bore. See also https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/trauma-is-indeed-like-a-car-crash https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/trauma-is-indeed-like-a....
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    I disagree that society is "doing its best to keep passing that along". The statistics also show that those under 50 are twice as open to mental health talk with close friends. While the idea of men being expected to be a "rock" isn't dead, I think it has changed somewhat. At least for my family/friends, while there is still a big expectation of being emotionally "strong", that doesn't come with the expectation of coming off as invulnerable.
- irrational 3y ago
  What is a friend (and how does that differ from a close friend)? Frankly, I don’t even talk about mental health with my wife, and I would say she is my best friend. I imagine this is cultural, but I’m not sure what that means. It’s not like anyone ever said to me, hey, never talk to your friend in private about mental health. And that isn’t something I’d expect people to talk about in public with each other where I could learn from observation. In other words, it doesn’t feel like something that is learned from explicit teaching or from observation. So, where is it learned from?
  - StephenAshmore 3y ago
    I think learning from omission is a real thing. If you never observed anyone doing it, then why would you? When I was growing up, no one ever talked about mental health or therapy, so I didn't even realize it was an option until college when I met others raised in a different culture.
    - irrational 3y ago
      But, where would you observe it? It isn't the kind of thing people talk about in public, usually. I know my wife and her friends discuss mental health issues, but they have never done so in front of me. Those discussions only happen in private. The only thing I can figure is that as teenagers girls discuss mental health issues and they learned it from slightly older teenage girls who themselves learned it from their own slightly older teenage girls when they were younger.
  - jrgoff 3y ago
    Yeah, I grew up where it was not common to talk about either. I think I mostly picked it up from significant others, and from joining a community for awhile where it was much more common to talk about those sorts of things. I'm glad that I did!
- dotnet00 3y ago
  It does climb to 37% for those under 30 and 29% between 30 and 50. Still low, but showing a big shift there.
- themacguffinman 3y ago
  The poll only counts people who talk about it "often or extremely often". It actually seems crazy to me that the number is so high for younger age groups: > And young adults are more likely to say they often talk about their mental health with close friends: 37% say this, compared with 29% of those 30 to 49 and 14% of those 50 and older. That's a lot of mental health talk. I suspect you won't see this amount of mental health talk in places with good average mental health.
  - mycologos 3y ago
    I think younger people have a much broader definition of "mental health". Somebody 50+ might say "mental health, like a mental hospital? no thanks", somebody in Gen Z might say "fr fr i always talk about how stressful school is with my homies".
    - fragmede 3y ago
      The older crowd is much less likely to advertise to one another that they have a shrink, whilst Gen Z is gonna jump on their phone after a session and say "yoooo guess what my therapist told me today" to their group text chat, so I'd say GenZ talks a ton more about mental health than older cohorts, not simply that they have a broader definition.
jondwillis 3y ago
Anecdata: I have been having a really difficult time relating and empathizing with new acquaintances (and even existing friends that I now see more often) in a meaningful way. This became noticeable since the pandemic. I basically operate on a principle of being so disappointed with my interactions with people that I now invest my time and emotions in other things, which I know is not sustainable or healthy. But the experience of trying to get to know people lately has been repulsive. Not sure what else to do! (and before anyone mentions therapy, I’m way ahead of you.)
- huytersd 3y ago
  The key thing about friendships is being able to take the other person for granted and being completely comfortable/not giving a shit about what the other person thinks. Friends are extremely loyal to each other and you have to be able to trust that the other person will act in your best interest. Modern psychology will tell you all these things are wrong and it shows in the general population. Disregard modern advice on this issue which all revolve around increasing your guard and being mindful around people. That does not work.
  - lhuser123 3y ago
    Interesting point. Not easy for some people but valuable insight nevertheless.
  - tigerlily 3y ago
    Agreed, but remember not to confide in someone who is a blab. Close friends who maintain their scruples are the truly valuable ones.
  - soulofmischief 3y ago
    I'm not sure if that tracks in the field. I am currently experiencing such a case where a friend I previously trusted 100% and considered loyal has turned into a complete psychopath on a self-destructive warpath in which I am in the square center. And I can list plenty of other such cases in my life. That said, I have some friendships which I do still put 100% in, and receive in kind, and I'm glad I have them. But I went through countless wasted relationships and hardships inflicted by others in order to know that these friends are the real ones. And I want to say that the process was worth it; But this idea that friends are extremely loyal to each other seems entirely unfounded in modern society. I recommend Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone which breaks down the problems modern America and Western society in general are facing regarding civil action, friendship and loyalty.
huytersd 3y ago
It’s never looked like friendships I’ve seen in India but that is expected. This is a much more individualistic society.
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago
  > This is a much more individualistic society. I'm not sure what it's like in other cultures but the past 5 years in a "coming to age" process, I never realized how few people care about others. I'm sure everybody has conflicting experiences but I have encountered multiple circles of acquaintances who never close that bridge/gap to become a "friend", going as far as not knowing your first name or what you do/anything about you after seeing you around and saying hello/goodbye for years. When I was younger, I never thought being an adult would be like this socializing wise.
  - halfmatthalfcat 3y ago
    I'm not sure what your expectations growing up were but I remember always hearing "making friends as adults is hard". This might be somewhat alleviated by having kids as a forcing function (becoming friends with your kid's friend's parents because of the amount of time they spend together) but it's pretty much been proven true. Making friends is a huge time investment, especially as an adult when you have more responsibilities that take up that time.
    - MuffinFlavored 3y ago
      > I'm not sure what your expectations growing up were but I remember always hearing "making friends as adults is hard". What's weird to me is... does it have to be? For example, I've been in plenty of situations where all it would take is somebody to turn to me and say "so... tell me about yourself. blah blah blah, wow, me too! here's my number, we should hang out sometime". I can't even get people to do that lol People just seem preoccupied with themselves/don't seem to care. But then I turn it into something against myself. Why do these people have other friends/care about others but don't want to extend their circle to include me? Is it something about me? Then you start thinking "wow... this person is rude, we've been around each other for 3+ years and they've never once asked me my name/anything about me" lol I feel like you tried to explain this to a high schooler as "something that may happen later in your adult life" they would say... "there's no way/I don't believe you"
otteromkram 3y ago
What are "friends?"
- irrational 3y ago
  I wish you weren’t downvoted. I had the same question while reading the article. Especially, what is the difference between an acquaintance, a friend, and a close friend?
- infp_arborist 3y ago
  "Friends" by Robin Dunbar explains that pretty well. Highly recommended.
- fenesiistvan 3y ago
  For me friends are people to get drunk with them on weekends. ...so i assume it is very subjective
- wheelerof4te 3y ago
  People with whom you willingly share your time and interests, and you aren't romantically involved with.
- civilitty 3y ago
  They're sort of like a walking buffet that you can talk to when you're bored. They're going to be crucial to our survival in the coming apocalypse but in the modern world they don't serve much purpose.
rootusrootus 3y ago
Another attempt to summarize 330 million people with a half dozen numbers. Yawn.
demondemidi 3y ago
Interesting that it completely skirts the issue of whether or not these friendships are remote or in-person. That can make a huge difference: texting with someone versus dropping by their place for a few hours on a Saturday afternoon aren't the same and not saying one is better than the other, and in many cases the former is impossible, but it does have an impact.
y-c-o-m-b 3y ago
Did I miss it or does it not define what a "close friend" is? I speak with two friends almost every day, but I'm unsure I would consider them "close friends" because I rarely see them in person and they're not really invested in my life in any major way (nor I theirs). For me, close friends would be defined as those you physically visit frequently during the week; where you can share every secret and detail of your life and they'll have your back or come to your aid whenever you need it. If you end up in an accident, they'll come visit you at the hospital. All that being said, I think the spectrum of what "close friend" means will vary widely for most people.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  To generalise a bit, extroverts consider practically anyone they talk to frequently a close friend. Introverts require a much deeper connection. I doubt there are many introverts with 5+ close friends whereas many extroverts have them.
  - friendsfew 3y ago
    [flagged]
- dotnet00 3y ago
  I think leaving it to people to pick their own definition is useful in this case because different age groups probably also have a different idea of what a friend and close friend is. In my mid-20s, my idea of a friend doesn't really depend too much on physical proximity. To me a friend is someone I find enjoyable/interesting enough to want to keep conversing with them. In my teens I'd have considered anyone of a similar age who I regularly interact with a friend. A close friend is someone I can trust with basically any thought/info and who similarly can trust me. All my close friends don't live anywhere near me and I have never even met 2 of them in person. But it's weird to not count them as close when we've been chatting and sharing our thoughts and experiences in near real-time for years now. I've become more restrictive with who I call a friend and especially who I call a close friend because as a child there isn't really much autonomy in choosing, you're more or less stuck with classmates and neighbors and any disagreements are meaningless and forgotten in a week. As an adult, I have much more freedom in who I engage with and I have to be picky because my time is limited and disagreements can cause much more damage.
deltaThis369 3y ago
USA 30+ adult here, total loner status: friends/spouse/acquaintances, I don't have anybody who spends any physical time near me. Obviously I get messages from old friends far away, but they might as well be letters in the mail. I remember having dozens of friends in school, since I was involved in half a dozen sponsored activities. Even in college, those extra curricular activities (and classes forced group work, science labs) is where I met most of my friends. But I did notice the count going down, I figured I was too busy with my work. Nowadays I'm 100% WFH, and have zero friends in any sort of physical proximity to me. Yes I'm single too, of course. I go out to eat every day just to have a chance of socializing, and to people-watch. I visit the sketchiest Walmart in my city in case something interesting happens, and to people-watch. Otherwise, I might as well not exist. If I died, my immediate family (parents, siblings) would be the only people to notice (after the county calls found my body, anyway), and maybe a friend or two from high school would drop in for the funeral. What happened? I'm an extroverted Leo, so unlike most lurkers here, I actually consider this a real problem in my life. --- I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I've realized a solution: drastically changing my living situation, and going out to bars more, is likely to be a reasonable plan to "make a lot of new friends" as an adult. Think about it: what do most, non-autistic people, who don't-use-computers, do on the weekend? They go to bars! They probably get laid, too!! The only apps on their phone are probably facebook, tinder and a sports betting app!!! --- While we're all complaining about this, there are tons of people who use their smartphones to socialize every day. *What are they doing that we don't?*
- ohdannyboy 3y ago
  I don't know your solution, but I can speak for what worked for me when I found myself in a very similar predicament. This was in conjunction with seeing a therapist about some of the reasons I wasn't spending my time socially when it was clearly what I needed (beyond the scope of what I'm willing to write here). I consider myself pretty extroverted and I am far, far happier than I was in 2020 when the problem was at its worst (the lockdowns were only a catalyst). I just started joining social activities and seeing what stuck. - I did Muay Thai classes but while I enjoy the sport, I didn't make any friends at the gym so I moved on (I work out at a more casual boxing gym now and enjoy it) - I play a lot of social sports leagues. At this point its mostly with people I already know but I joined as free agents for a solid year, usually in 2 at any given time. These were mostly weeknights (WFH makes this a lot easier). There's a group of us who regularly do things ranging from bowling to dinner parties, I'd say I have about 5 moderately close friends from this circle. - Went to random singles meetup groups. I actually met 2 of my closest male friends at a singles group that only 1 girl showed up to (I'm a guy btw). We started talking, kept in touch and became extremely close. I regularly take vacations with these two. I've met several friends through them too. - Took improv classes. I met a lot of interesting people here since I never really had an artistic outlet before (having an artistic outlet turned out to be a great thing too). - Joined a political group and met a few people there, one of whom is among my closest friends. He got me into Muay Thai and we usually see a movie every week or so. - I avoided tech and gaming groups since they're so heavily male and well within my comfort zone. This is largely a numbers game. I don't keep in touch with or even remember the vast majority of people I've met in these groups. But everyone I currently spend time with I met via the above. Think about it: what do most, non-autistic people, who don't-use-computers, do on the weekend? They go to bars! They probably get laid, too!! I think this is putting the cart before the horse. Groups of friends go to bars to socialize. Not everyone goes out and gets laid from there, plenty of people just want to hang out with their friends.
Simulacra 3y ago
Friendship after 30 is HARD. Our single friends are painfully lonely but the older they get the more insular they are.
friendlyguy 3y ago
Americans don't know how to make "friends." I'm an immigrant from a slavic country. I grew up in the north east of the U.S. -- the more continental/European part of this country. My experience has been that Americans outside of this small cultural nook are: 1. dishonest and insincere; 2. socially performative and inauthentic; 3. conversationally shallow and mentally dull; 4. self-centered and unconscientious; 5. culturally stunted, making for a characteristic mixture that precludes them from having any deep friendships. I'm sure many slavs will understand the culture shock of being asked an insincere "how are you?" Americans don't care how you are. It's a social performance to signal "I'm normal. Are you normal?" Once that has been broached, the next step is to engage in a shallow, safe, and completely meaningless conversation to assert to one another that yes, each person is still mentally sound (in the American definition of the word; i.e., do you fit in). As opposed to Europeans (sans Nordics), Americans are deathly self-conscious of their image, what people think of them, and whether or not what they say can and will be used against them in a court of public opinion. This ends up manifesting in shallow conversations and a lack of authenticity. Very few Americans will be able to say, honestly and openly, to another what they really think and feel. And what they do say is always chained down by decades of having to self-censor, so it comes out inelegant, clumsy, and as though they never really put much thought into what they think. It is impossible to make friends if you're unwilling to let go, and speak from the soul. Friendship requires vulnerability. It requires that you be able to present yourself as who you are, and be ready for someone to not like you. Europeans can handle disagreement and coexist with one another, despite differing opinions. In spite of America's "melting pot" status, they still cannot coexist with different ideas and view points -- they always take it as a challenge to make their ideas known, rather than to try to understand the other's -- or as a podium to make known how insular and unworldly they are. Having been in this country for 40 years, I have not made a single American "friend." I have countless American acquaintances in my phone book, but none are what I would call a friend. The only interesting conversations I've had with Americans have been from those on the autistic spectrum, the rest have been utterly uninspiring. Contrast this to my rich social life with the those from all sorts of cultures: latins, europeans, slavics, asians, oceanics, britons, I have numerous people I call friend in these groups. They understand the give-and-take, push-and-pull, speak-and-listen dynamic of socialization. Americans only know "me, me, me." How can you be friends with someone who only ever talks about pedestrian topics? Who never is truly genuine with the world, nor himself? Who is not open to live and suffer? You can't. American's issues stem from their lack of culture. They are devoid of any deeper concepts or values. Partly the incessant protestant values. Partly that anyone with a soul will have to deaden themselves to get along. Partly the inability to stop what they're doing and simply exist. Provocative yes. But these are my observations, and they haven't been twisted and turned to comply with whatever flavor of cultural fad pervades the current zeitgeist -- or butchered to "get along."
YeahSureWhyNot 3y ago
I have this problem and in my case it started before I moved to United States. I went to same school when I was a kid until age of 12. Then I went to a private high school in a different town where studied for 5 years and it felt like I made a lot of friends there. After that I went to college in a different country and studied there for 6 years where I also made a ton of friends. Then in my mid twenties I moved to United States and initially it felt like I had made a lot of friends during my first few years in the States but pretty much nobody from my college or high school years were in touch with me by then. After I got married, it felt like I lost most of my friends that I had made. Being married was very lonely and I got divorced and moved to another state. I worked at different places and had normal relationships with people but after I switch jobs I noticed that nobody stays in touch. I'm getting closer to my 40s and I am thinking a lot about this problem that apparently I have but I can't point out what am I doing wrong. I am not rude to anyone and don't have bad habits or other negative things that are obvious to me but I do wonder what is the cause of this.
- meowfly 3y ago
  My hunch is that all your moving doesn't help. I'm a similar age and it feels impossible to make new friends. Virtually all my current inner circle are friends from ~20 years from High School and College. It's much easier to lose friends then gain them. So as people marry, have kids, move, keeping the close allyship becomes more difficult. The kinds of activities most US 30+ adults are open to are relatively small and easily prone to be disrupted. For example, I might invite someone to watch a basketball game, but it will take a fairly long time for that kind of contact to blossom into a strong friendship. Moving just resets everything. Also consider I would never call up a coworker I might have known for years and invite to something more personal, like a ski vacation. If I was in college, I wouldn't think twice about doing that with someone I didn't even know that well.
- JohnBrookz 3y ago
  Having lived here most of my life as an extrovert I can safely say, don’t count on any American friends. All of the closest friends I’ve made have been European, Asian , Hispanic or on the spectrum. Every friend is just a networking opportunity here. Even worse, Americans are uncultured and boring.

56 points by jyunwai 3y ago

xwdv 3y ago

These days it looks a lot like just sending each other memes back and forth on social media.

jondwillis 3y ago
Having quit social media for partially that reason, now people either text me memes, or I don’t hear from them as much, or at all. (I memetically refer to social media and memes as “the mind killers” with some friends)
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Dune would've looked a lot different if social media was the mind killer instead.

sououwantchina 3y ago

[flagged]

Probiotic6081 3y ago

Interesting article - if only 15% of American men talk about their mental health with their "close friends" them and I have a different definition of what a friend is!

spacemadness 3y ago
Yeah, well, you need to cut through layer upon layer of social conditioning telling you people rely on you to be strong. Not vulnerable, but more like a rock. If you’re going to be sad or some such, we prefer you to show anger instead. Because that shows strength. Overall society is doing its best to keep passing that along to the next generation as a gift that keeps on giving.
- dash2 3y ago
  Counterpoint. I just met someone who started telling me about their bipolarity within the first five minutes of meeting. It was pretty obviously functioning as a trophy for them. This is a pretty stereotypical kind of modern bore. See also https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/trauma-is-indeed-like-a-car-crash https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/trauma-is-indeed-like-a....
- dotnet00 3y ago
  I disagree that society is "doing its best to keep passing that along". The statistics also show that those under 50 are twice as open to mental health talk with close friends. While the idea of men being expected to be a "rock" isn't dead, I think it has changed somewhat. At least for my family/friends, while there is still a big expectation of being emotionally "strong", that doesn't come with the expectation of coming off as invulnerable.
irrational 3y ago
What is a friend (and how does that differ from a close friend)? Frankly, I don’t even talk about mental health with my wife, and I would say she is my best friend. I imagine this is cultural, but I’m not sure what that means. It’s not like anyone ever said to me, hey, never talk to your friend in private about mental health. And that isn’t something I’d expect people to talk about in public with each other where I could learn from observation. In other words, it doesn’t feel like something that is learned from explicit teaching or from observation. So, where is it learned from?
- StephenAshmore 3y ago
  I think learning from omission is a real thing. If you never observed anyone doing it, then why would you? When I was growing up, no one ever talked about mental health or therapy, so I didn't even realize it was an option until college when I met others raised in a different culture.
  - irrational 3y ago
    But, where would you observe it? It isn't the kind of thing people talk about in public, usually. I know my wife and her friends discuss mental health issues, but they have never done so in front of me. Those discussions only happen in private. The only thing I can figure is that as teenagers girls discuss mental health issues and they learned it from slightly older teenage girls who themselves learned it from their own slightly older teenage girls when they were younger.
- jrgoff 3y ago
  Yeah, I grew up where it was not common to talk about either. I think I mostly picked it up from significant others, and from joining a community for awhile where it was much more common to talk about those sorts of things. I'm glad that I did!
dotnet00 3y ago
It does climb to 37% for those under 30 and 29% between 30 and 50. Still low, but showing a big shift there.
themacguffinman 3y ago
The poll only counts people who talk about it "often or extremely often". It actually seems crazy to me that the number is so high for younger age groups: > And young adults are more likely to say they often talk about their mental health with close friends: 37% say this, compared with 29% of those 30 to 49 and 14% of those 50 and older. That's a lot of mental health talk. I suspect you won't see this amount of mental health talk in places with good average mental health.
- mycologos 3y ago
  I think younger people have a much broader definition of "mental health". Somebody 50+ might say "mental health, like a mental hospital? no thanks", somebody in Gen Z might say "fr fr i always talk about how stressful school is with my homies".
  - fragmede 3y ago
    The older crowd is much less likely to advertise to one another that they have a shrink, whilst Gen Z is gonna jump on their phone after a session and say "yoooo guess what my therapist told me today" to their group text chat, so I'd say GenZ talks a ton more about mental health than older cohorts, not simply that they have a broader definition.

jondwillis 3y ago

Anecdata: I have been having a really difficult time relating and empathizing with new acquaintances (and even existing friends that I now see more often) in a meaningful way. This became noticeable since the pandemic. I basically operate on a principle of being so disappointed with my interactions with people that I now invest my time and emotions in other things, which I know is not sustainable or healthy. But the experience of trying to get to know people lately has been repulsive. Not sure what else to do! (and before anyone mentions therapy, I’m way ahead of you.)

huytersd 3y ago
The key thing about friendships is being able to take the other person for granted and being completely comfortable/not giving a shit about what the other person thinks. Friends are extremely loyal to each other and you have to be able to trust that the other person will act in your best interest. Modern psychology will tell you all these things are wrong and it shows in the general population. Disregard modern advice on this issue which all revolve around increasing your guard and being mindful around people. That does not work.
- lhuser123 3y ago
  Interesting point. Not easy for some people but valuable insight nevertheless.
- tigerlily 3y ago
  Agreed, but remember not to confide in someone who is a blab. Close friends who maintain their scruples are the truly valuable ones.
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  I'm not sure if that tracks in the field. I am currently experiencing such a case where a friend I previously trusted 100% and considered loyal has turned into a complete psychopath on a self-destructive warpath in which I am in the square center. And I can list plenty of other such cases in my life. That said, I have some friendships which I do still put 100% in, and receive in kind, and I'm glad I have them. But I went through countless wasted relationships and hardships inflicted by others in order to know that these friends are the real ones. And I want to say that the process was worth it; But this idea that friends are extremely loyal to each other seems entirely unfounded in modern society. I recommend Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone which breaks down the problems modern America and Western society in general are facing regarding civil action, friendship and loyalty.

huytersd 3y ago

It’s never looked like friendships I’ve seen in India but that is expected. This is a much more individualistic society.

MuffinFlavored 3y ago
> This is a much more individualistic society. I'm not sure what it's like in other cultures but the past 5 years in a "coming to age" process, I never realized how few people care about others. I'm sure everybody has conflicting experiences but I have encountered multiple circles of acquaintances who never close that bridge/gap to become a "friend", going as far as not knowing your first name or what you do/anything about you after seeing you around and saying hello/goodbye for years. When I was younger, I never thought being an adult would be like this socializing wise.
- halfmatthalfcat 3y ago
  I'm not sure what your expectations growing up were but I remember always hearing "making friends as adults is hard". This might be somewhat alleviated by having kids as a forcing function (becoming friends with your kid's friend's parents because of the amount of time they spend together) but it's pretty much been proven true. Making friends is a huge time investment, especially as an adult when you have more responsibilities that take up that time.
  - MuffinFlavored 3y ago
    > I'm not sure what your expectations growing up were but I remember always hearing "making friends as adults is hard". What's weird to me is... does it have to be? For example, I've been in plenty of situations where all it would take is somebody to turn to me and say "so... tell me about yourself. blah blah blah, wow, me too! here's my number, we should hang out sometime". I can't even get people to do that lol People just seem preoccupied with themselves/don't seem to care. But then I turn it into something against myself. Why do these people have other friends/care about others but don't want to extend their circle to include me? Is it something about me? Then you start thinking "wow... this person is rude, we've been around each other for 3+ years and they've never once asked me my name/anything about me" lol I feel like you tried to explain this to a high schooler as "something that may happen later in your adult life" they would say... "there's no way/I don't believe you"

otteromkram 3y ago

What are "friends?"

irrational 3y ago
I wish you weren’t downvoted. I had the same question while reading the article. Especially, what is the difference between an acquaintance, a friend, and a close friend?
infp_arborist 3y ago
"Friends" by Robin Dunbar explains that pretty well. Highly recommended.
fenesiistvan 3y ago
For me friends are people to get drunk with them on weekends. ...so i assume it is very subjective
wheelerof4te 3y ago
People with whom you willingly share your time and interests, and you aren't romantically involved with.
civilitty 3y ago
They're sort of like a walking buffet that you can talk to when you're bored. They're going to be crucial to our survival in the coming apocalypse but in the modern world they don't serve much purpose.

rootusrootus 3y ago

Another attempt to summarize 330 million people with a half dozen numbers. Yawn.

demondemidi 3y ago

Interesting that it completely skirts the issue of whether or not these friendships are remote or in-person. That can make a huge difference: texting with someone versus dropping by their place for a few hours on a Saturday afternoon aren't the same and not saying one is better than the other, and in many cases the former is impossible, but it does have an impact.

y-c-o-m-b 3y ago

Did I miss it or does it not define what a "close friend" is? I speak with two friends almost every day, but I'm unsure I would consider them "close friends" because I rarely see them in person and they're not really invested in my life in any major way (nor I theirs). For me, close friends would be defined as those you physically visit frequently during the week; where you can share every secret and detail of your life and they'll have your back or come to your aid whenever you need it. If you end up in an accident, they'll come visit you at the hospital. All that being said, I think the spectrum of what "close friend" means will vary widely for most people.

zeroonetwothree 3y ago
To generalise a bit, extroverts consider practically anyone they talk to frequently a close friend. Introverts require a much deeper connection. I doubt there are many introverts with 5+ close friends whereas many extroverts have them.
- friendsfew 3y ago
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dotnet00 3y ago
I think leaving it to people to pick their own definition is useful in this case because different age groups probably also have a different idea of what a friend and close friend is. In my mid-20s, my idea of a friend doesn't really depend too much on physical proximity. To me a friend is someone I find enjoyable/interesting enough to want to keep conversing with them. In my teens I'd have considered anyone of a similar age who I regularly interact with a friend. A close friend is someone I can trust with basically any thought/info and who similarly can trust me. All my close friends don't live anywhere near me and I have never even met 2 of them in person. But it's weird to not count them as close when we've been chatting and sharing our thoughts and experiences in near real-time for years now. I've become more restrictive with who I call a friend and especially who I call a close friend because as a child there isn't really much autonomy in choosing, you're more or less stuck with classmates and neighbors and any disagreements are meaningless and forgotten in a week. As an adult, I have much more freedom in who I engage with and I have to be picky because my time is limited and disagreements can cause much more damage.

deltaThis369 3y ago

USA 30+ adult here, total loner status: friends/spouse/acquaintances, I don't have anybody who spends any physical time near me. Obviously I get messages from old friends far away, but they might as well be letters in the mail. I remember having dozens of friends in school, since I was involved in half a dozen sponsored activities. Even in college, those extra curricular activities (and classes forced group work, science labs) is where I met most of my friends. But I did notice the count going down, I figured I was too busy with my work. Nowadays I'm 100% WFH, and have zero friends in any sort of physical proximity to me. Yes I'm single too, of course. I go out to eat every day just to have a chance of socializing, and to people-watch. I visit the sketchiest Walmart in my city in case something interesting happens, and to people-watch. Otherwise, I might as well not exist. If I died, my immediate family (parents, siblings) would be the only people to notice (after the county calls found my body, anyway), and maybe a friend or two from high school would drop in for the funeral. What happened? I'm an extroverted Leo, so unlike most lurkers here, I actually consider this a real problem in my life. --- I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I've realized a solution: drastically changing my living situation, and going out to bars more, is likely to be a reasonable plan to "make a lot of new friends" as an adult. Think about it: what do most, non-autistic people, who don't-use-computers, do on the weekend? They go to bars! They probably get laid, too!! The only apps on their phone are probably facebook, tinder and a sports betting app!!! --- While we're all complaining about this, there are tons of people who use their smartphones to socialize every day. *What are they doing that we don't?*

ohdannyboy 3y ago
I don't know your solution, but I can speak for what worked for me when I found myself in a very similar predicament. This was in conjunction with seeing a therapist about some of the reasons I wasn't spending my time socially when it was clearly what I needed (beyond the scope of what I'm willing to write here). I consider myself pretty extroverted and I am far, far happier than I was in 2020 when the problem was at its worst (the lockdowns were only a catalyst). I just started joining social activities and seeing what stuck. - I did Muay Thai classes but while I enjoy the sport, I didn't make any friends at the gym so I moved on (I work out at a more casual boxing gym now and enjoy it) - I play a lot of social sports leagues. At this point its mostly with people I already know but I joined as free agents for a solid year, usually in 2 at any given time. These were mostly weeknights (WFH makes this a lot easier). There's a group of us who regularly do things ranging from bowling to dinner parties, I'd say I have about 5 moderately close friends from this circle. - Went to random singles meetup groups. I actually met 2 of my closest male friends at a singles group that only 1 girl showed up to (I'm a guy btw). We started talking, kept in touch and became extremely close. I regularly take vacations with these two. I've met several friends through them too. - Took improv classes. I met a lot of interesting people here since I never really had an artistic outlet before (having an artistic outlet turned out to be a great thing too). - Joined a political group and met a few people there, one of whom is among my closest friends. He got me into Muay Thai and we usually see a movie every week or so. - I avoided tech and gaming groups since they're so heavily male and well within my comfort zone. This is largely a numbers game. I don't keep in touch with or even remember the vast majority of people I've met in these groups. But everyone I currently spend time with I met via the above. Think about it: what do most, non-autistic people, who don't-use-computers, do on the weekend? They go to bars! They probably get laid, too!! I think this is putting the cart before the horse. Groups of friends go to bars to socialize. Not everyone goes out and gets laid from there, plenty of people just want to hang out with their friends.

Simulacra 3y ago

Friendship after 30 is HARD. Our single friends are painfully lonely but the older they get the more insular they are.

friendlyguy 3y ago

Americans don't know how to make "friends." I'm an immigrant from a slavic country. I grew up in the north east of the U.S. -- the more continental/European part of this country. My experience has been that Americans outside of this small cultural nook are: 1. dishonest and insincere; 2. socially performative and inauthentic; 3. conversationally shallow and mentally dull; 4. self-centered and unconscientious; 5. culturally stunted, making for a characteristic mixture that precludes them from having any deep friendships. I'm sure many slavs will understand the culture shock of being asked an insincere "how are you?" Americans don't care how you are. It's a social performance to signal "I'm normal. Are you normal?" Once that has been broached, the next step is to engage in a shallow, safe, and completely meaningless conversation to assert to one another that yes, each person is still mentally sound (in the American definition of the word; i.e., do you fit in). As opposed to Europeans (sans Nordics), Americans are deathly self-conscious of their image, what people think of them, and whether or not what they say can and will be used against them in a court of public opinion. This ends up manifesting in shallow conversations and a lack of authenticity. Very few Americans will be able to say, honestly and openly, to another what they really think and feel. And what they do say is always chained down by decades of having to self-censor, so it comes out inelegant, clumsy, and as though they never really put much thought into what they think. It is impossible to make friends if you're unwilling to let go, and speak from the soul. Friendship requires vulnerability. It requires that you be able to present yourself as who you are, and be ready for someone to not like you. Europeans can handle disagreement and coexist with one another, despite differing opinions. In spite of America's "melting pot" status, they still cannot coexist with different ideas and view points -- they always take it as a challenge to make their ideas known, rather than to try to understand the other's -- or as a podium to make known how insular and unworldly they are. Having been in this country for 40 years, I have not made a single American "friend." I have countless American acquaintances in my phone book, but none are what I would call a friend. The only interesting conversations I've had with Americans have been from those on the autistic spectrum, the rest have been utterly uninspiring. Contrast this to my rich social life with the those from all sorts of cultures: latins, europeans, slavics, asians, oceanics, britons, I have numerous people I call friend in these groups. They understand the give-and-take, push-and-pull, speak-and-listen dynamic of socialization. Americans only know "me, me, me." How can you be friends with someone who only ever talks about pedestrian topics? Who never is truly genuine with the world, nor himself? Who is not open to live and suffer? You can't. American's issues stem from their lack of culture. They are devoid of any deeper concepts or values. Partly the incessant protestant values. Partly that anyone with a soul will have to deaden themselves to get along. Partly the inability to stop what they're doing and simply exist. Provocative yes. But these are my observations, and they haven't been twisted and turned to comply with whatever flavor of cultural fad pervades the current zeitgeist -- or butchered to "get along."

YeahSureWhyNot 3y ago

I have this problem and in my case it started before I moved to United States. I went to same school when I was a kid until age of 12. Then I went to a private high school in a different town where studied for 5 years and it felt like I made a lot of friends there. After that I went to college in a different country and studied there for 6 years where I also made a ton of friends. Then in my mid twenties I moved to United States and initially it felt like I had made a lot of friends during my first few years in the States but pretty much nobody from my college or high school years were in touch with me by then. After I got married, it felt like I lost most of my friends that I had made. Being married was very lonely and I got divorced and moved to another state. I worked at different places and had normal relationships with people but after I switch jobs I noticed that nobody stays in touch. I'm getting closer to my 40s and I am thinking a lot about this problem that apparently I have but I can't point out what am I doing wrong. I am not rude to anyone and don't have bad habits or other negative things that are obvious to me but I do wonder what is the cause of this.

meowfly 3y ago
My hunch is that all your moving doesn't help. I'm a similar age and it feels impossible to make new friends. Virtually all my current inner circle are friends from ~20 years from High School and College. It's much easier to lose friends then gain them. So as people marry, have kids, move, keeping the close allyship becomes more difficult. The kinds of activities most US 30+ adults are open to are relatively small and easily prone to be disrupted. For example, I might invite someone to watch a basketball game, but it will take a fairly long time for that kind of contact to blossom into a strong friendship. Moving just resets everything. Also consider I would never call up a coworker I might have known for years and invite to something more personal, like a ski vacation. If I was in college, I wouldn't think twice about doing that with someone I didn't even know that well.
JohnBrookz 3y ago
Having lived here most of my life as an extrovert I can safely say, don’t count on any American friends. All of the closest friends I’ve made have been European, Asian , Hispanic or on the spectrum. Every friend is just a networking opportunity here. Even worse, Americans are uncultured and boring.