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You make an interesting case, but are you controlling for education level or profession of the parents before they immigrated to the US? It wasn’t uncommon in

You make an interesting case, but are you controlling for education level or profession of the parents before they immigrated to the US? It wasn’t uncommon in the 80s-90s to meet an Eastern European, Asian or Jewish immigrant who came from a STEM background but for a variety of reasons couldn’t work in their field once they moved to the US so they worked as store clerks or taxi drivers. Perhaps the differences your talking about isn’t cultural but rather dependent on what economic and education class the immigrant parents came from. To add to this; See this article & paper > https://news.ku.edu/2020/06/18/study-shows-african-immigrants-do-well-despite-differences-among-them https://news.ku.edu/2020/06/18/study-shows-african-immigrant... > https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19376812.2020.1744455 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19376812.2020.17... > The paper contrasts Nigerian newcomers with those from Somalia, whose work ethic is similarly strong, but whose lack of education hurts their employment prospects here. > The authors wrote: “Overall, African-born immigrants aged 16 and over have a higher rate of employment (69.2%) relative to the foreign-born population (63.1%) and the general US population (59.9%).” The study also notes significant differences between Nigerian immigrants, who mostly come from that country’s south, and Somalis. For one thing, with its history of British colonization, many more Nigerians speak English upon arrival in the U.S. than do Somalis. That makes the Nigerians’ transition easier in almost every respect. “For the Nigerian-born immigrants, the proportion that possesses at least a bachelor's degree is 60.5%,” Chikanda said. “But when we look at the Somali-born population ... that's about 15%.”

mlinhares 3y ago
He's not, it's the magical thinking "pulling yourself by your own bootstraps" when reality is that my kid is going to have a better outcome than the average Latino immigrant because both of his parents is college level educated, speak multiple languages and live in a well off zipcode, even though both me and his mother were poor back in Brazil. It's sad to see people write off whole populations like this, "all the other immigrants that weren't european or asian", as if all africans and latinos are stupid and not that they didn't have any references of people that went to college or were educated and did well. Completely ignoring the environment these people came from. I definitely recommend the work of professor Raj Chetty on the subject: https://rajchetty.com/ https://rajchetty.com/ He talks a lot about how even growing up in a community with great role models (doesn't even have to be your own parents) affects the outcomes for kids because they get to KNOW there are other options. When I got to college I had no idea I could move to another country by being a programmer, then a friend moved to Australia and I was like WAIT, I CAN DO THAT AS WELL? Most of my plans back then were to move to Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro to find a well paying job but that single friend that moved to another country completely opened over the world to me.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > He's not, it's the magical thinking "pulling yourself by your own bootstraps" when reality is that my kid is going to have a better outcome than the average Latino immigrant because both of his parents is college level educated, speak multiple languages and live in a well off zipcode, even though both me and his mother were poor back in Brazil. If you compare two kids whose parents are at the 25th percentile economically, one whose parents are native born Americans and the other whose parents are Guatemalan, the Guatemalan kid is actually going do better as a grown up. And a Chinese kid will do better than both of them.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
    > And a Chinese kid will do better than both of them. Speaking as someone who grew up in an area where Asian Americans were the majority, the average Chinese kid may ultimately fare better in terms of income, but may also have unresolved mental health issues steming from the crushing parental pressure in their childhood.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      I know Asian Americans who are jealous about not having a permissive American-style upbringing. But in reality American kids just have different shit, like instability from parents getting divorced, or getting stuck at a dead end service job because nobody ever taught them to navigate the system. America is brutal competition. Asian parenting at least prepares you for that.
2devnull 3y ago
So your argument is, hopefully I’m not strawmanning: People who are from cultures that value education tend to be more educated. Based on that you reject the parent’s point about education being a function of student motivation (derived via social norms acquired via their families)? How can genetics not also play a large part in human variation?
- em-bee 3y ago
  the reality in china is that in the older generations not many people are educated because they simply didn't have the opportunity. nevertheless they still push their children to study and take advantage of opportunities given to them.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    ^This. Just because one doesn't have education because one couldn't afford it doesn't mean one does not value education. I'm from Europe and my grandad, god rest his soul, a welder with his only 4 years of school which were the norm for peasant farmers that the state would provide back then, would get confused and frustrated seeing the youth of today mock and shit all over the free, state-provided education, saying he'd have given anything to be able to have the amounts of education and opportunities the youth of today have and doesn't understand how they don't value it and instead choose to disregard it and treat school with such disrespect. Which is why he encouraged my mom and later myself to keep hitting those books so we don't "end up like him", though a skilled welder today can earn more than many professions with college degrees.
rayiner 3y ago
> You make an interesting case, but are you controlling for education level or profession of the parents before they immigrated to the US? Certain groups, like Nigerians, outperform even conditional on educational attainment: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001971 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001... Regardless, as to OP’a anecdote, what difference does that make if everyone is living in the same neighborhood in similar economic circumstances? When my uncles and aunts migrated to the US Canada and Australia, their degrees from Bangladesh were worthless. They worked service jobs or were just unemployed. What benefit did their kids get over other kids who were living in the same rundown subsidized apartment housing?

mlinhares 3y ago

He's not, it's the magical thinking "pulling yourself by your own bootstraps" when reality is that my kid is going to have a better outcome than the average Latino immigrant because both of his parents is college level educated, speak multiple languages and live in a well off zipcode, even though both me and his mother were poor back in Brazil. It's sad to see people write off whole populations like this, "all the other immigrants that weren't european or asian", as if all africans and latinos are stupid and not that they didn't have any references of people that went to college or were educated and did well. Completely ignoring the environment these people came from. I definitely recommend the work of professor Raj Chetty on the subject: https://rajchetty.com/ https://rajchetty.com/ He talks a lot about how even growing up in a community with great role models (doesn't even have to be your own parents) affects the outcomes for kids because they get to KNOW there are other options. When I got to college I had no idea I could move to another country by being a programmer, then a friend moved to Australia and I was like WAIT, I CAN DO THAT AS WELL? Most of my plans back then were to move to Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro to find a well paying job but that single friend that moved to another country completely opened over the world to me.

rayiner 3y ago
> He's not, it's the magical thinking "pulling yourself by your own bootstraps" when reality is that my kid is going to have a better outcome than the average Latino immigrant because both of his parents is college level educated, speak multiple languages and live in a well off zipcode, even though both me and his mother were poor back in Brazil. If you compare two kids whose parents are at the 25th percentile economically, one whose parents are native born Americans and the other whose parents are Guatemalan, the Guatemalan kid is actually going do better as a grown up. And a Chinese kid will do better than both of them.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
  > And a Chinese kid will do better than both of them. Speaking as someone who grew up in an area where Asian Americans were the majority, the average Chinese kid may ultimately fare better in terms of income, but may also have unresolved mental health issues steming from the crushing parental pressure in their childhood.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    I know Asian Americans who are jealous about not having a permissive American-style upbringing. But in reality American kids just have different shit, like instability from parents getting divorced, or getting stuck at a dead end service job because nobody ever taught them to navigate the system. America is brutal competition. Asian parenting at least prepares you for that.

2devnull 3y ago

So your argument is, hopefully I’m not strawmanning: People who are from cultures that value education tend to be more educated. Based on that you reject the parent’s point about education being a function of student motivation (derived via social norms acquired via their families)? How can genetics not also play a large part in human variation?

em-bee 3y ago
the reality in china is that in the older generations not many people are educated because they simply didn't have the opportunity. nevertheless they still push their children to study and take advantage of opportunities given to them.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  ^This. Just because one doesn't have education because one couldn't afford it doesn't mean one does not value education. I'm from Europe and my grandad, god rest his soul, a welder with his only 4 years of school which were the norm for peasant farmers that the state would provide back then, would get confused and frustrated seeing the youth of today mock and shit all over the free, state-provided education, saying he'd have given anything to be able to have the amounts of education and opportunities the youth of today have and doesn't understand how they don't value it and instead choose to disregard it and treat school with such disrespect. Which is why he encouraged my mom and later myself to keep hitting those books so we don't "end up like him", though a skilled welder today can earn more than many professions with college degrees.

rayiner 3y ago

> You make an interesting case, but are you controlling for education level or profession of the parents before they immigrated to the US? Certain groups, like Nigerians, outperform even conditional on educational attainment: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001971 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231211001... Regardless, as to OP’a anecdote, what difference does that make if everyone is living in the same neighborhood in similar economic circumstances? When my uncles and aunts migrated to the US Canada and Australia, their degrees from Bangladesh were worthless. They worked service jobs or were just unemployed. What benefit did their kids get over other kids who were living in the same rundown subsidized apartment housing?