6 ms·

I want to chime in, feeding a family of 4 should cost around $20k [0]. The article puts the federal poverty line at $26,200. $6,200 is not going to be a comfor

by roenxi 3y ago

I want to chime in, feeding a family of 4 should cost around $20k [0]. The article puts the federal poverty line at $26,200. $6,200 is not going to be a comfortable experience - but there is no fundamental reason it should be impossible, crushing or stressful. And the non-linear effect of dropping price that the article mentions is probably going to be caused by regulatory factors demanding minimum standards. If people directed the effort they put into minimum wages into driving down costs, they'd have a much more meaningful impact on the experience of impoverished people. Increasing incomes is good, but controlling costs is better. [0] https://www.move.org/the-average-cost-of-food-in-the-us/ https://www.move.org/the-average-cost-of-food-in-the-us/

jlkuester7 3y ago
So, I think we can agree that we don't have to just choose one method for improving the lives of low-income people. At the same time, it is true that some ways are more effective at producing results than others. Should we try to raise wages? Yes! Should we try to drive down costs? Yes! That being said, if I had to choose, I think I would prefer to increase my income instead of decreasing the cost of items I had to purchase. (Of course, both would be best!) Lower cost items only benefit me, if I need to purchase them. With an increased income comes an increased set of options for how to deploy that income.
- em-bee 3y ago
  i don't see how that makes much of a difference. if costs are lower my income goes a lot further too, i save money on essentials and i have more freedom to spend the remaining money as i see fit. increased income is really just lower prices plus inflation. what matters is the ratio of cost of living to income.
  - abenga 3y ago
    Lower costs for you are lower income for someone else.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      Not necessarily. The historical trend (talking really big picture) is that dropping costs have been associated with much higher wages for everyone. That'd hold small picture too. Observe that income is a flow while costs are a static measure. In theory, if my costs halve then we wouldn't expect wages to halve. They'd halve per-widget and there would be more demand for widgets, leading to a slight quality of life increase.
tonyedgecombe 3y ago
That sounds a lot to me, we spent £6,000 ($7300 USD) for three adults last year and ate really well. If I was on a budget I could shave £2,000 off that fairly easily. Is food really that expensive in the US?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Children eat like bodybuilders because they are. 6+ meals and snacks a day.
  - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
    They tend to eat children's portions :) I know what you mean, I have two adult children and they did eat a lot in their teenage years but not enough to cover the disparity I questioned.
bscphil 3y ago
This doesn't respond to the main point of your comment (the livability of a $6k a year for a family of four), but I think it's interesting anyway. > feeding a family of 4 should cost around $20k This sounded absolutely crazy to me, so I did a little bit of digging. $20k is $416 per person, per month. For reference, we (a family of two adults) spend less than that total per month on groceries - not including eating out, which we do a couple times a month. That's been relatively constant, it was ~20% more or so when we lived in a much more expensive city (typical rent more than double our current). I would be really interested in hearing concrete stories from other middle class or poor people (or seeing links), but the relevant points of difference seem to be these: * The cost estimates are based on a 2400 calorie diet per person. Both of us eat less than that as adults, and 2 children can certainly be expected to do so. * The food estimates they're using [1] seem outlandish. It includes no processed foods, has you eating apples, bananas, oranges, and tomatoes every day, and the weights given are strange as well - 300 g of apples is probably two apples, so we're talking a lot of fruit in this meal plan. It also estimates eating 2.4 eggs per day??! * It's not clear how the average values for the whole U.S. are derived. If only large cities are considered, the cost will probably be artificially inflated relative to the true average. * We're both vegetarian, and a considerable fraction of our food is made fresh. Even with the US government heavily subsidizing meat purchases, it's probably significant cost savings for us to live like this. * In the other direction, I don't think grocery cost is likely to account for anything close to 100% of the true cost of "feeding a family of four", because it doesn't account for eating out, drive-through coffee purchases, etc. Americans spend more on food away from home than they do food at home. [2] In terms of food cost estimates that are not based on the grocery cost of an arbitrary (and odd) subset of the food that people eat, I found the following estimates: * USDA: the middle quintile household spends $9k a year on food (with the lowest quintile around $5k). [3] $20k a year would be more than spent by the average household in the highest quintile. (Note: this is for a typical household, not a family of four. On the other hand, this includes realistic not-at-home food expenses.) * The USDA offers food plans that are intended to be healthy (so likely more expensive than typical American food choices). On a "thrifty" budget (the lowest level), their costs for a reference family of four are $975 a month, or $11.7k a year. [4] Even on the most liberal plan provided [5], the cost for the reference family of four is $19k. [1] https://www.numbeo.com/food-prices/country_result.jsp?country=United+States https://www.numbeo.com/food-prices/country_result.jsp?countr... [2] https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=2b168260-a717-4708-a264-cb354e815c67 https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistic... [3] https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/gallery/chart-detail/?chartId=58372 https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/gallery... [4] https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/CostofFoodAug2023Thrifty.pdf https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-f... [5] https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/CostofFoodAug2023LowModLib.pdf https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-f...
bscphil 3y ago
> $6,200 is not going to be a comfortable experience - but there is no fundamental reason it should be impossible, crushing or stressful. Given than the average monthly rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is ~$1300, how does this make any sense? Even if it was only $500 a month, this theoretical family of four would be spending their entire $6000 on rent. I realize that talking about driving down costs probably includes rent, but getting the typical cost of a two bedroom apartment well below $500 is almost certainly not possible.
- roenxi 3y ago
  You've hit on the central point - someone attempting to raise a family of 4 on poverty-incomes is going to get destroyed by housing costs. At those sort of incomes, they might be looking at things like tents and shipping containers. My advice would be not to start a family if you're income is that low, but it is a bit late once kids are on the scene. But the issue I'm seeing here is, right now, people are staving themselves and having their water cut off because they can't afford to pay for it. If anyone was going to help them, it'd have happened by now - so it is a safe guess that they're on their own. Living in a tent is brutal, but humans have millions of years experience doing that and they'll probably be ok. Dehydrated starving is worse. The path to wealth is to get costs down below income. Then they save a little bit of money each month and can start investing in long term improvements. That isn't possible if society makes it impossible to survive at low incomes.
qingcharles 3y ago
In the US, if you're below the poverty line you are receiving food stamps which equates to like $290/person/mo right now I think, according to my friends, all of whom are on them. I can't get them myself due to my immigration status, but I spend perhaps $3/wk on food since there are food pantries which give you all sorts of random stuff that is expiring.

by roenxi 3y ago

jlkuester7 3y ago

So, I think we can agree that we don't have to just choose one method for improving the lives of low-income people. At the same time, it is true that some ways are more effective at producing results than others. Should we try to raise wages? Yes! Should we try to drive down costs? Yes! That being said, if I had to choose, I think I would prefer to increase my income instead of decreasing the cost of items I had to purchase. (Of course, both would be best!) Lower cost items only benefit me, if I need to purchase them. With an increased income comes an increased set of options for how to deploy that income.

em-bee 3y ago
i don't see how that makes much of a difference. if costs are lower my income goes a lot further too, i save money on essentials and i have more freedom to spend the remaining money as i see fit. increased income is really just lower prices plus inflation. what matters is the ratio of cost of living to income.
- abenga 3y ago
  Lower costs for you are lower income for someone else.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    Not necessarily. The historical trend (talking really big picture) is that dropping costs have been associated with much higher wages for everyone. That'd hold small picture too. Observe that income is a flow while costs are a static measure. In theory, if my costs halve then we wouldn't expect wages to halve. They'd halve per-widget and there would be more demand for widgets, leading to a slight quality of life increase.

tonyedgecombe 3y ago

That sounds a lot to me, we spent £6,000 ($7300 USD) for three adults last year and ate really well. If I was on a budget I could shave £2,000 off that fairly easily. Is food really that expensive in the US?

willcipriano 3y ago
Children eat like bodybuilders because they are. 6+ meals and snacks a day.
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  They tend to eat children's portions :) I know what you mean, I have two adult children and they did eat a lot in their teenage years but not enough to cover the disparity I questioned.

bscphil 3y ago

This doesn't respond to the main point of your comment (the livability of a $6k a year for a family of four), but I think it's interesting anyway. > feeding a family of 4 should cost around $20k This sounded absolutely crazy to me, so I did a little bit of digging. $20k is $416 per person, per month. For reference, we (a family of two adults) spend less than that total per month on groceries - not including eating out, which we do a couple times a month. That's been relatively constant, it was ~20% more or so when we lived in a much more expensive city (typical rent more than double our current). I would be really interested in hearing concrete stories from other middle class or poor people (or seeing links), but the relevant points of difference seem to be these: * The cost estimates are based on a 2400 calorie diet per person. Both of us eat less than that as adults, and 2 children can certainly be expected to do so. * The food estimates they're using [1] seem outlandish. It includes no processed foods, has you eating apples, bananas, oranges, and tomatoes every day, and the weights given are strange as well - 300 g of apples is probably two apples, so we're talking a lot of fruit in this meal plan. It also estimates eating 2.4 eggs per day??! * It's not clear how the average values for the whole U.S. are derived. If only large cities are considered, the cost will probably be artificially inflated relative to the true average. * We're both vegetarian, and a considerable fraction of our food is made fresh. Even with the US government heavily subsidizing meat purchases, it's probably significant cost savings for us to live like this. * In the other direction, I don't think grocery cost is likely to account for anything close to 100% of the true cost of "feeding a family of four", because it doesn't account for eating out, drive-through coffee purchases, etc. Americans spend more on food away from home than they do food at home. [2] In terms of food cost estimates that are not based on the grocery cost of an arbitrary (and odd) subset of the food that people eat, I found the following estimates: * USDA: the middle quintile household spends $9k a year on food (with the lowest quintile around $5k). [3] $20k a year would be more than spent by the average household in the highest quintile. (Note: this is for a typical household, not a family of four. On the other hand, this includes realistic not-at-home food expenses.) * The USDA offers food plans that are intended to be healthy (so likely more expensive than typical American food choices). On a "thrifty" budget (the lowest level), their costs for a reference family of four are $975 a month, or $11.7k a year. [4] Even on the most liberal plan provided [5], the cost for the reference family of four is $19k. [1] https://www.numbeo.com/food-prices/country_result.jsp?country=United+States https://www.numbeo.com/food-prices/country_result.jsp?countr... [2] https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=2b168260-a717-4708-a264-cb354e815c67 https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistic... [3] https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/gallery/chart-detail/?chartId=58372 https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/gallery... [4] https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/CostofFoodAug2023Thrifty.pdf https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-f... [5] https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-files/CostofFoodAug2023LowModLib.pdf https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/resource-f...

bscphil 3y ago

> $6,200 is not going to be a comfortable experience - but there is no fundamental reason it should be impossible, crushing or stressful. Given than the average monthly rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is ~$1300, how does this make any sense? Even if it was only $500 a month, this theoretical family of four would be spending their entire $6000 on rent. I realize that talking about driving down costs probably includes rent, but getting the typical cost of a two bedroom apartment well below $500 is almost certainly not possible.

roenxi 3y ago
You've hit on the central point - someone attempting to raise a family of 4 on poverty-incomes is going to get destroyed by housing costs. At those sort of incomes, they might be looking at things like tents and shipping containers. My advice would be not to start a family if you're income is that low, but it is a bit late once kids are on the scene. But the issue I'm seeing here is, right now, people are staving themselves and having their water cut off because they can't afford to pay for it. If anyone was going to help them, it'd have happened by now - so it is a safe guess that they're on their own. Living in a tent is brutal, but humans have millions of years experience doing that and they'll probably be ok. Dehydrated starving is worse. The path to wealth is to get costs down below income. Then they save a little bit of money each month and can start investing in long term improvements. That isn't possible if society makes it impossible to survive at low incomes.

qingcharles 3y ago

In the US, if you're below the poverty line you are receiving food stamps which equates to like $290/person/mo right now I think, according to my friends, all of whom are on them. I can't get them myself due to my immigration status, but I spend perhaps $3/wk on food since there are food pantries which give you all sorts of random stuff that is expiring.