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Absolutely. Also the law of large numbers. And despite the downvotes I don't want to take that away from OP, definitely what they did was difficult, commendable

by jddj 3y ago

Absolutely. Also the law of large numbers. And despite the downvotes I don't want to take that away from OP, definitely what they did was difficult, commendable etc. Edit: removing a further unnecessary elaboration here because it feels like I'm just piling on. Initially the reception to my earlier comment skewed quite negative but it seems to have leveled out.

sublinear 3y ago
I'll bite. You're completely ignoring the effects of claims such as yours being a convenient excuse for those with low self esteem as well as poverty culture in general. You can make all the observations you want but correlation is still not causation. Your original comment before your edit made claims of someone in a given environment having certain behaviors while someone in a different environment not having those behaviors. I'm saying those behaviors are not caused by a mere "environment", but systemic and wholly caused by the broader culture we all live in and the opinions espoused by those who control it. Poor people are definitely attuned to that and mostly because they're vulnerable and living in a social desert. They don't know better beyond what's fed to them by the media and bad interpretations of "science" on social media and anywhere there are comments such as these. They spend so much of their time searching for and grasping at whatever seems relevant to their situation and overthink what they believe is beyond their horizons. The poor are still often ignored and excluded especially by those who think they're being inclusive.
- drekipus 3y ago
  I agree with this totally, it's like "poverty programming" because we need poor people to remain poor. "How can I feel good about helping poor people if the answer is in themselves, and there's no more poor people? It's best if they are oppressed by some system, in which I can counterbalance by the few dollars I give them on my way home from work"
  - jddj 3y ago
    Many industries would greatly benefit from poor people becoming less poor. Poor people really don't consume that much. Political power is another matter.
    - drekipus 3y ago
      All poor people do is consume. They're the easiest to market to.
- jddj 3y ago
  I read the scare quotes around free will is an illusion to be saying that these individuals obviously have the capacity to change their circumstances if they only had the personal mettle, or whatever. This response is more nuanced though and I can see what you're saying. I can agree with a lot of that, and sorry about cutting out the comment from underneath you - didn't realise. I think you're right that claims and sentiments like, for example, the poor stay poor but it's not their fault don't exist in a vacuum and will have some negative effects. The question is whether they're more helpful on balance, or less damaging than an alternative tough love just pull yourself up already, everyone else did attitude. I think speaking about the current reality as we understand it is probably the best option. I don't personally agree with the correlation/causation comment in this context. Putting the research (eg. the heredity of university admission) aside, not-born-poor folk can be just as shitty and lazy and morally bankrupt as anyone else but hope, greed, health, education and opportunity are good counterweights to that.

by jddj 3y ago

sublinear 3y ago

I'll bite. You're completely ignoring the effects of claims such as yours being a convenient excuse for those with low self esteem as well as poverty culture in general. You can make all the observations you want but correlation is still not causation. Your original comment before your edit made claims of someone in a given environment having certain behaviors while someone in a different environment not having those behaviors. I'm saying those behaviors are not caused by a mere "environment", but systemic and wholly caused by the broader culture we all live in and the opinions espoused by those who control it. Poor people are definitely attuned to that and mostly because they're vulnerable and living in a social desert. They don't know better beyond what's fed to them by the media and bad interpretations of "science" on social media and anywhere there are comments such as these. They spend so much of their time searching for and grasping at whatever seems relevant to their situation and overthink what they believe is beyond their horizons. The poor are still often ignored and excluded especially by those who think they're being inclusive.

drekipus 3y ago
I agree with this totally, it's like "poverty programming" because we need poor people to remain poor. "How can I feel good about helping poor people if the answer is in themselves, and there's no more poor people? It's best if they are oppressed by some system, in which I can counterbalance by the few dollars I give them on my way home from work"
- jddj 3y ago
  Many industries would greatly benefit from poor people becoming less poor. Poor people really don't consume that much. Political power is another matter.
  - drekipus 3y ago
    All poor people do is consume. They're the easiest to market to.
jddj 3y ago
I read the scare quotes around free will is an illusion to be saying that these individuals obviously have the capacity to change their circumstances if they only had the personal mettle, or whatever. This response is more nuanced though and I can see what you're saying. I can agree with a lot of that, and sorry about cutting out the comment from underneath you - didn't realise. I think you're right that claims and sentiments like, for example, the poor stay poor but it's not their fault don't exist in a vacuum and will have some negative effects. The question is whether they're more helpful on balance, or less damaging than an alternative tough love just pull yourself up already, everyone else did attitude. I think speaking about the current reality as we understand it is probably the best option. I don't personally agree with the correlation/causation comment in this context. Putting the research (eg. the heredity of university admission) aside, not-born-poor folk can be just as shitty and lazy and morally bankrupt as anyone else but hope, greed, health, education and opportunity are good counterweights to that.