5 ms·

Information online is “buried at the bottom of a lot of verbiage and guff”, Mr Suleyman argued, so websites can “sell more adverts”, fuelled by

by mg 3y ago

Information online is “buried at the bottom of a lot of verbiage and guff”, Mr Suleyman argued, so websites can “sell more adverts”, fuelled by Google’s technology. I think we are at a turning point in this regard. AI can now read through SEO fluff text and ads and present the user with the information they are looking for. Therefore, there will be no more incentive to create those types of sites. The web will change. Into what it will change is yet to be seen. But it will change.

TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
> Therefore, there will be no more incentive to create those types of sites. There will also be no more incentive to create sites with actual useful information since AI will just appropriate it. AI will destroy the source of its training data.
- ramraj07 3y ago
  The sites with actual useful information don’t need much effort to create and maintain. If it was all just wikis it’s perfectly great. The problem only became when “entrepreneurs” realized they can game this system to gain money.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    The sites with actually useful information don't care about AI anyway. There's no way in which LLM being trained or used on them hurts them - if anything, it helps the information become more widely available (which is the goal of such sites anyway). If anything, this reduces the load on the site and expense of hosting it - which is a good thing. Such sites would only be hurt if they somehow derived benefit from marginal reader visiting their site - but this doesn't apply to sites with quality, trustworthy information, as the only such benefits you can get is either ego stroking or earning money by subjecting the visitor to some kind of abuse. For sites doing that, if AI kills them, I call good riddance.
  - onion2k 3y ago
    I'm struggling to think of a site I use regularly that could function without either adverts or someone else (businesses, donations, or the site owner) putting money to fund it, and I honestly can't think of one. The modern internet just wouldn't function if we took entrepreneurship out of it.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      Someone has to put some money into everything, but the number can be low enough to be entirely donations. > The modern internet just wouldn't function if we took entrepreneurship out of it. I think the modern internet is specifically what we're all upset about here? That the "entrepreneurship" isn't the grand visions of spaceships and androids and electric driverless cars of Musk, it's not the "app for that" of Jobs, it's not "connecting the world" (who even said that, Zuckerberg?), it's not "organising the world's information" like early Google… it's cramming as many ads as possible into someone's field of view at all times like the villain in Ready Player One.
    - ramraj07 3y ago
      Almost Every single useful site I use is not powered by business. It’s either government funded or donation based.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      Better than ads, sites can make money by selling products and services. A website with information on gardening, that also sells the equipment and seeds you need. A website with travel information that also sells tours. A website with any programming and IT information that also sells software. These kind of sites make much better money than ad and affiliate sites, but people haven't understood it yet. The online ad industry – especially on social media – is a huge scam. Small and medium size businesses can't resist throwing in some bucks in the ad casino, and Facebook will tell them they had so many thousands of impressions, funny that it didn't turn into any sales? Online ads are also very comfortable and easy for some worthless manager who has a set advertising budget. Just throw away the money into social media ads instead of thinking through a campaign.
      - 3y ago
- tomjen3 3y ago
  Wikipedia is not going to stop. Your local cinema is not going to stop posting movies and show times on their website. The only sites that are going to be hit by this are those that make money on ads.
  - onion2k 3y ago
    My local cinema doesn't have a website. It uses social media instead.
  - TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
    Wikipedia doesn't cover everything. > The only sites that are going to be hit by this are those that make money on ads. There are plenty of those and they do provide value - else they won't have been able to survive all these years via ads.
    - tomjen3 3y ago
      There are plenty of sites, but would you rather follow a link to one of them, or to a personal blog with info about the same thing?
      - TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
        > would you rather follow a link to one of them, or to a personal blog with info about the same thing? Either one is OK frankly, as long as I get the information I need. Depending on my confidence level in the accuracy of the information on those sites, I might even visit both to compare and contrast. Regardless, both are unlikely to survive without ads. Most people don't run their own web server to host a blog - most people don't know, and don't want to know, how. Even if hosting isn't a problem for blogs, I think the amount of blogging will drop. Who would want spend a week crafting a blog detailing their experiences with something and what they have learned then get next to no views because some AI appropriated their content and stole all your viewers? With few visitors, probably just search engine and AI crawlers, and no comments on their blog posts ... it's hard not to feel that it's just a wasting time.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
> AI can now read through SEO fluff text and ads and present the user with the information they are looking for. Little comfort when so much of that fluff is now being AI generated. There becomes a point at which we dilute the quality of the information on the web so much, the detail is just lost. AI generating summaries of AI generated garbage is not going to create a better web. I’ve been reading AP News recently, directly on their website, and the site is so riddled with ads it’s hard to read the articles. We are truly breaking the internet.
- jdblair 3y ago
  We're heading into a future where text is generated by language models, then other language models are used to generate summaries for human consumption. We will drown in AI bullshit and then use more AI to try and extract the meaningful kernel.
  - scary-size 3y ago
    What was it about the internet being five big sites filled with screenshots from the other four…? Let’s turn that up to 11.
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    Yeah. If we can “solve” AI and make systems that develop genuine knowledge, then we will be okay. But that may never happen and we may find ourselves stuck at the current “bullshit generator” phase and if that happens the internet is absolutely fucked.
    - plonk 3y ago
      Search engines are fucked in that scenario. Maybe we'll just need better-curated ones, or a better ranking (usefulness ratings by verified users?). And anyone can still create a website, so you can escape the AI flood. But if Google failed to defend against SEO before LLMs, maybe the scale of the current search engines is just too big for effective moderation and we need to scale down to smaller communities.
pjmlp 3y ago
It already changed on the mobile space, native apps have reclaimed what the browser took away on the desktop. Ironically many Web sites packed as Web widgets are no different from the same site being delivered from the Webserver.
joosters 3y ago
> AI can now read through SEO fluff text and ads and present the user with the information they are looking for. So? Google can do that too. They just choose not to, for profit reasons. AI can (presumably) also do that. But will AI companies instead choose profit? Of course they will.
- manmal 3y ago
  They already do, ChatGPT Plus is a monthly subscription. If they add ads or product placement, people will start self-hosting transformers, at least for website summarizing.
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    It requires competence and time to self host.
    - manmal 3y ago
      At this moment, yes. A few more hardware cycles and those can be run in a browser plug-in.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
> Therefore, there will be no more incentive to create those types of sites. Incentive is still there; scoundrels trying to make easy money on the Internet will adapt. Before, they tailored their SEO spam to fool Google's search crawlers and ranking algorithms. Now, they'll tailor their spam to fool LLMs. There's a well-established adversarial approach for this too. The LLM works as a discriminator, your job is to train/tune a generative model that fools the discriminator. If you can do it semi-reliably, you can put an API in front of it and sell it as "prompt injector as a service", and rake in the money. Couple more people do that, and all the ex-SEO scoundrels can get back to poisoning the commons for the highest bidder. (Open source, like always, will come to "help", and let any small scamgency run their own "mix ads into content" models locally.) The web will indeed change. But LLMs are like any other tool - they can be used for both good and for ill, and those using it for ill have much more money and drive. So I don't expect the change to be for the better; the tech is different, but the incentives and (severe deficiency of) ethics of the main players are still the same.
- mattlondon 3y ago
  They can fool LLMs sure, but to what end? They need the traffic on their site to sell the ads - poisoning a LLM's response does not directly drive traffic to their individual site, so they won't profit. I don't think that some random SEO outfit has much more money than Google or OpenAI or Microsoft - they're not going to be able to "DoS" (as it were) a LLM to trick people to come to their site and click ads.
onetokeoverthe 3y ago
[dead]
quickthrower2 3y ago
AI has been trying to do this for ages. It is a classification problem not language generation so LLMs were not needed (and may be too expensive for billions of pages) It is a cat and mouse game
_Algernon_ 3y ago
Maybe. But the level of effort required to produce the drivel in the first place will also be lowered dramatically. How the overall balance will change is questionable at this point.

by mg 3y ago

TerrifiedMouse 3y ago

> Therefore, there will be no more incentive to create those types of sites. There will also be no more incentive to create sites with actual useful information since AI will just appropriate it. AI will destroy the source of its training data.

ramraj07 3y ago
The sites with actual useful information don’t need much effort to create and maintain. If it was all just wikis it’s perfectly great. The problem only became when “entrepreneurs” realized they can game this system to gain money.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  The sites with actually useful information don't care about AI anyway. There's no way in which LLM being trained or used on them hurts them - if anything, it helps the information become more widely available (which is the goal of such sites anyway). If anything, this reduces the load on the site and expense of hosting it - which is a good thing. Such sites would only be hurt if they somehow derived benefit from marginal reader visiting their site - but this doesn't apply to sites with quality, trustworthy information, as the only such benefits you can get is either ego stroking or earning money by subjecting the visitor to some kind of abuse. For sites doing that, if AI kills them, I call good riddance.
- onion2k 3y ago
  I'm struggling to think of a site I use regularly that could function without either adverts or someone else (businesses, donations, or the site owner) putting money to fund it, and I honestly can't think of one. The modern internet just wouldn't function if we took entrepreneurship out of it.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Someone has to put some money into everything, but the number can be low enough to be entirely donations. > The modern internet just wouldn't function if we took entrepreneurship out of it. I think the modern internet is specifically what we're all upset about here? That the "entrepreneurship" isn't the grand visions of spaceships and androids and electric driverless cars of Musk, it's not the "app for that" of Jobs, it's not "connecting the world" (who even said that, Zuckerberg?), it's not "organising the world's information" like early Google… it's cramming as many ads as possible into someone's field of view at all times like the villain in Ready Player One.
  - ramraj07 3y ago
    Almost Every single useful site I use is not powered by business. It’s either government funded or donation based.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    Better than ads, sites can make money by selling products and services. A website with information on gardening, that also sells the equipment and seeds you need. A website with travel information that also sells tours. A website with any programming and IT information that also sells software. These kind of sites make much better money than ad and affiliate sites, but people haven't understood it yet. The online ad industry – especially on social media – is a huge scam. Small and medium size businesses can't resist throwing in some bucks in the ad casino, and Facebook will tell them they had so many thousands of impressions, funny that it didn't turn into any sales? Online ads are also very comfortable and easy for some worthless manager who has a set advertising budget. Just throw away the money into social media ads instead of thinking through a campaign.
    - 3y ago
tomjen3 3y ago
Wikipedia is not going to stop. Your local cinema is not going to stop posting movies and show times on their website. The only sites that are going to be hit by this are those that make money on ads.
- onion2k 3y ago
  My local cinema doesn't have a website. It uses social media instead.
- TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
  Wikipedia doesn't cover everything. > The only sites that are going to be hit by this are those that make money on ads. There are plenty of those and they do provide value - else they won't have been able to survive all these years via ads.
  - tomjen3 3y ago
    There are plenty of sites, but would you rather follow a link to one of them, or to a personal blog with info about the same thing?
    - TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
      > would you rather follow a link to one of them, or to a personal blog with info about the same thing? Either one is OK frankly, as long as I get the information I need. Depending on my confidence level in the accuracy of the information on those sites, I might even visit both to compare and contrast. Regardless, both are unlikely to survive without ads. Most people don't run their own web server to host a blog - most people don't know, and don't want to know, how. Even if hosting isn't a problem for blogs, I think the amount of blogging will drop. Who would want spend a week crafting a blog detailing their experiences with something and what they have learned then get next to no views because some AI appropriated their content and stole all your viewers? With few visitors, probably just search engine and AI crawlers, and no comments on their blog posts ... it's hard not to feel that it's just a wasting time.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

> AI can now read through SEO fluff text and ads and present the user with the information they are looking for. Little comfort when so much of that fluff is now being AI generated. There becomes a point at which we dilute the quality of the information on the web so much, the detail is just lost. AI generating summaries of AI generated garbage is not going to create a better web. I’ve been reading AP News recently, directly on their website, and the site is so riddled with ads it’s hard to read the articles. We are truly breaking the internet.

jdblair 3y ago
We're heading into a future where text is generated by language models, then other language models are used to generate summaries for human consumption. We will drown in AI bullshit and then use more AI to try and extract the meaningful kernel.
- scary-size 3y ago
  What was it about the internet being five big sites filled with screenshots from the other four…? Let’s turn that up to 11.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Yeah. If we can “solve” AI and make systems that develop genuine knowledge, then we will be okay. But that may never happen and we may find ourselves stuck at the current “bullshit generator” phase and if that happens the internet is absolutely fucked.
  - plonk 3y ago
    Search engines are fucked in that scenario. Maybe we'll just need better-curated ones, or a better ranking (usefulness ratings by verified users?). And anyone can still create a website, so you can escape the AI flood. But if Google failed to defend against SEO before LLMs, maybe the scale of the current search engines is just too big for effective moderation and we need to scale down to smaller communities.

pjmlp 3y ago

It already changed on the mobile space, native apps have reclaimed what the browser took away on the desktop. Ironically many Web sites packed as Web widgets are no different from the same site being delivered from the Webserver.

joosters 3y ago

> AI can now read through SEO fluff text and ads and present the user with the information they are looking for. So? Google can do that too. They just choose not to, for profit reasons. AI can (presumably) also do that. But will AI companies instead choose profit? Of course they will.

manmal 3y ago
They already do, ChatGPT Plus is a monthly subscription. If they add ads or product placement, people will start self-hosting transformers, at least for website summarizing.
- LtWorf 3y ago
  It requires competence and time to self host.
  - manmal 3y ago
    At this moment, yes. A few more hardware cycles and those can be run in a browser plug-in.

TeMPOraL 3y ago

> Therefore, there will be no more incentive to create those types of sites. Incentive is still there; scoundrels trying to make easy money on the Internet will adapt. Before, they tailored their SEO spam to fool Google's search crawlers and ranking algorithms. Now, they'll tailor their spam to fool LLMs. There's a well-established adversarial approach for this too. The LLM works as a discriminator, your job is to train/tune a generative model that fools the discriminator. If you can do it semi-reliably, you can put an API in front of it and sell it as "prompt injector as a service", and rake in the money. Couple more people do that, and all the ex-SEO scoundrels can get back to poisoning the commons for the highest bidder. (Open source, like always, will come to "help", and let any small scamgency run their own "mix ads into content" models locally.) The web will indeed change. But LLMs are like any other tool - they can be used for both good and for ill, and those using it for ill have much more money and drive. So I don't expect the change to be for the better; the tech is different, but the incentives and (severe deficiency of) ethics of the main players are still the same.

mattlondon 3y ago
They can fool LLMs sure, but to what end? They need the traffic on their site to sell the ads - poisoning a LLM's response does not directly drive traffic to their individual site, so they won't profit. I don't think that some random SEO outfit has much more money than Google or OpenAI or Microsoft - they're not going to be able to "DoS" (as it were) a LLM to trick people to come to their site and click ads.

onetokeoverthe 3y ago

[dead]

quickthrower2 3y ago

AI has been trying to do this for ages. It is a classification problem not language generation so LLMs were not needed (and may be too expensive for billions of pages) It is a cat and mouse game

_Algernon_ 3y ago

Maybe. But the level of effort required to produce the drivel in the first place will also be lowered dramatically. How the overall balance will change is questionable at this point.