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Its not going to work. The US loves its digital oligarchs. They have been given carte-blanche to "innovate" and, predictably, democracy died in their hands. N

Its not going to work. The US loves its digital oligarchs. They have been given carte-blanche to "innovate" and, predictably, democracy died in their hands. Not that the Europeans are vastly superior democrats [1]. But as luck would have it, the EU is a coalition of many sovereign states. The oligarchs of one country are not welcome in another. So far at least, a grand collusion has proven elusive. This simple political difference is why Europe is the world champion of data protection regulation. [1] There are minor differences of-course. As a Dutch comedy show reminded us again, what passes as left-wing in the States is right-wing in Europe :-)

RandomLensman 3y ago
If you believe the policy issues faced by the US are a result of digital innovation/industry concentration, I would suggest a look history: Strong polarization, disinterest, propaganda and so forth have a very long history.
- nologic01 3y ago
  I'd love an expanded explanatory framework as this is as complex as important issue as any. But I am not sure where to take your leads: Polarization: If anything, strong and opposing political opinions should induce real debate about the shape of control in the digital universe. The fact that there is none speaks volumes. Its a fake polarization, to keep the masses numb and pre-occupied with secondary issues while the real power gets entrenched. The issue of how the digital society is structured is not a left-right thing. Its a democracy versus oligarchy thing. Disinterest: This is a given everywhere. People in their large numbers can't be interested on matters that are technical, arcane and way beyond their comfort zone. The critical issue is the interest, incentives and behaviors of a much smaller constituency (in business, politics, civil society etc) that do have the equipment and means to think and act. For now at least this constituency is captured. It thinks it will fare better as an adjunct to oligarchy rather than imagining and implementing the principles of democracy, checks-and-balances, individual freedoms, healthy markets etc in the digital era. Propaganda and so forth... Well yes, lets not try to solve humanity's all problems in one HN thread :-). The main (new) issue we have (and the tension revealed by these repeated EU-US frictions around data protection) is the very diverging attitudes in the nominally homogeneous cultural and economic space that is the North Atlantic region. This divergence is not tenable: Either the US will change its course and democratize (unlikely), or the EU will capitulate (unlikely) or the EU will have to build its digital society as distinct from the US (also unlikely). The question is which of these unlikely events is the most likely.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    The digital society/universe is just not high enough on most people's agenda, so what power advantage could be gained from a debate? That doesn't imply polarization on other topics is fake, though. It is well understood that in democracies, small committed groups of voters can have disproportionate impact - I think that is more of a bug than a feature. Even in the EU, data protection is only something a minority actively cares about (and Germany is stuck in a founding myth there which means it has a hard time relaxing). The EU and US have been divergent on a lot things for decades now, so it would be surprising if they converged on digital.
    - jorvi 3y ago
      > It is well understood that in democracies, small committed groups of voters can have disproportionate impact Commercial farmers and fishers. They represent a tiny tiny percentage of the EU electorate and economy but they bend everything in their favor.

RandomLensman 3y ago

If you believe the policy issues faced by the US are a result of digital innovation/industry concentration, I would suggest a look history: Strong polarization, disinterest, propaganda and so forth have a very long history.

nologic01 3y ago
I'd love an expanded explanatory framework as this is as complex as important issue as any. But I am not sure where to take your leads: Polarization: If anything, strong and opposing political opinions should induce real debate about the shape of control in the digital universe. The fact that there is none speaks volumes. Its a fake polarization, to keep the masses numb and pre-occupied with secondary issues while the real power gets entrenched. The issue of how the digital society is structured is not a left-right thing. Its a democracy versus oligarchy thing. Disinterest: This is a given everywhere. People in their large numbers can't be interested on matters that are technical, arcane and way beyond their comfort zone. The critical issue is the interest, incentives and behaviors of a much smaller constituency (in business, politics, civil society etc) that do have the equipment and means to think and act. For now at least this constituency is captured. It thinks it will fare better as an adjunct to oligarchy rather than imagining and implementing the principles of democracy, checks-and-balances, individual freedoms, healthy markets etc in the digital era. Propaganda and so forth... Well yes, lets not try to solve humanity's all problems in one HN thread :-). The main (new) issue we have (and the tension revealed by these repeated EU-US frictions around data protection) is the very diverging attitudes in the nominally homogeneous cultural and economic space that is the North Atlantic region. This divergence is not tenable: Either the US will change its course and democratize (unlikely), or the EU will capitulate (unlikely) or the EU will have to build its digital society as distinct from the US (also unlikely). The question is which of these unlikely events is the most likely.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  The digital society/universe is just not high enough on most people's agenda, so what power advantage could be gained from a debate? That doesn't imply polarization on other topics is fake, though. It is well understood that in democracies, small committed groups of voters can have disproportionate impact - I think that is more of a bug than a feature. Even in the EU, data protection is only something a minority actively cares about (and Germany is stuck in a founding myth there which means it has a hard time relaxing). The EU and US have been divergent on a lot things for decades now, so it would be surprising if they converged on digital.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    > It is well understood that in democracies, small committed groups of voters can have disproportionate impact Commercial farmers and fishers. They represent a tiny tiny percentage of the EU electorate and economy but they bend everything in their favor.