3 ms·

Not all bike paths exist in quiet suburbs. Some exist along busy main roads, which make them dangerous even for adult riders.

asveikau 3y ago
I suspect this depends on a North American centric definition of "busy main road" and "bike path".
b112 3y ago
That's not really a bike path, now is it? It's a painted lane on a road. I've never been in a place where I had to take a "busy main road" to get around locally. Cross it sometimes, sure, which can be done at a light. This sort of highlights the problem. Over-protectiveness, by examining the worst that can happen, and the worst scenario.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Well, frankly, perhaps you haven't been to that many places.
- caconym_ 3y ago
  I've been riding in a big west coast city for the better part of two decades, and I have definitely not been able to rely on dedicated bike paths (or even multimodal "trails") to get around. I mostly ride in the road, and often in the car lane rather than a paint-separated bike lane when I judge that the latter is unsafe (can happen for various reasons but mostly conflicts with cars turning right, pulling out, etc.). Despite that, I've avoided bad accidents and generally felt pretty safe, but only because I survived long enough to develop an acute intuition for when drivers are about to do something stupid/illegal/dangerous. Previous and contemporaneous experience driving a car on the same streets was also very important. I would not trust these streets with my daughter's safety on a bike, and I honestly won't trust her to read the idiots' minds until she has some experience doing so from inside a heavy steel cage. Riding within neighborhoods like the one I live in now is a different question, though some people do drive quite fast through here, and the size of the typical modern car makes clearances and sight-lines rather tight. I do see a lot of older kids out on their own walking, often to and from school, which I think is great.
  - b112 3y ago
    I've been riding in a big west coast city for the better part of two decades, and I have definitely not been able to rely on dedicated bike paths (or even multimodal "trails") to get around. Fair enough, but that's not what I said. I said locally, and neighbourhood. You elude to this later in your comment, but it seems unjust to reply, and refue my comment, while changing scope. These are kids. They can bike locally to friends houses, or a corner store, or a non-central local strip mall, without hitting main roads. Which you in fact agree with, later in your comment! It doesn't need to be all or nothing, people. Biking in local neighbourhoods can be safe, and it can still be dicey on the main roads.
    - caconym_ 3y ago
      > I said locally, and neighbourhood. I think the problem with your model is that it conflates these two concepts, which may sometimes be appropriate but definitely isn't universal. For example, if you walk about 3/4 of a block east from my house you will hit a relatively busy arterial that is honestly one of the more dangerous roads I've ever ridden on, with broken sight lines due to parked cars (which also constitute a dooring hazard), lots of cars pulling in and out from side streets and parking spots, delivery drivers blocking the bike lane, a busy pedestrian crossing (again with very poor visibility), and cracked and rutted pavement. Just from their small stature alone, a child riding on this road would be in significantly more danger than an adult would, to say nothing of the skill and experience it takes to navigate so many simultaneous conflicts safely. On the other hand, if you walk west from my house, you can go the better part of a mile through a quiet, shady neighborhood before hitting a main road. Now what is "local" and what is "neighborhood"? Is the grocery store about a 3 minute walk east of my house not "local" just because to get there you have to at least cross this busy, relatively dangerous arterial? I don't think that makes sense. However, it's definitely not part of my neighborhood in the go ride around the neighborhood sense I understood as a child growing up in the suburbs. So in my view I am not changing the scope of the conversation, but rather trying to draw your attention to a distinction that may not exist in the locales you have experience with, but is important in some of those you don't.
      - 3y ago

asveikau 3y ago

I suspect this depends on a North American centric definition of "busy main road" and "bike path".

b112 3y ago

That's not really a bike path, now is it? It's a painted lane on a road. I've never been in a place where I had to take a "busy main road" to get around locally. Cross it sometimes, sure, which can be done at a light. This sort of highlights the problem. Over-protectiveness, by examining the worst that can happen, and the worst scenario.

Apocryphon 3y ago
Well, frankly, perhaps you haven't been to that many places.
caconym_ 3y ago
I've been riding in a big west coast city for the better part of two decades, and I have definitely not been able to rely on dedicated bike paths (or even multimodal "trails") to get around. I mostly ride in the road, and often in the car lane rather than a paint-separated bike lane when I judge that the latter is unsafe (can happen for various reasons but mostly conflicts with cars turning right, pulling out, etc.). Despite that, I've avoided bad accidents and generally felt pretty safe, but only because I survived long enough to develop an acute intuition for when drivers are about to do something stupid/illegal/dangerous. Previous and contemporaneous experience driving a car on the same streets was also very important. I would not trust these streets with my daughter's safety on a bike, and I honestly won't trust her to read the idiots' minds until she has some experience doing so from inside a heavy steel cage. Riding within neighborhoods like the one I live in now is a different question, though some people do drive quite fast through here, and the size of the typical modern car makes clearances and sight-lines rather tight. I do see a lot of older kids out on their own walking, often to and from school, which I think is great.
- b112 3y ago
  I've been riding in a big west coast city for the better part of two decades, and I have definitely not been able to rely on dedicated bike paths (or even multimodal "trails") to get around. Fair enough, but that's not what I said. I said locally, and neighbourhood. You elude to this later in your comment, but it seems unjust to reply, and refue my comment, while changing scope. These are kids. They can bike locally to friends houses, or a corner store, or a non-central local strip mall, without hitting main roads. Which you in fact agree with, later in your comment! It doesn't need to be all or nothing, people. Biking in local neighbourhoods can be safe, and it can still be dicey on the main roads.
  - caconym_ 3y ago
    > I said locally, and neighbourhood. I think the problem with your model is that it conflates these two concepts, which may sometimes be appropriate but definitely isn't universal. For example, if you walk about 3/4 of a block east from my house you will hit a relatively busy arterial that is honestly one of the more dangerous roads I've ever ridden on, with broken sight lines due to parked cars (which also constitute a dooring hazard), lots of cars pulling in and out from side streets and parking spots, delivery drivers blocking the bike lane, a busy pedestrian crossing (again with very poor visibility), and cracked and rutted pavement. Just from their small stature alone, a child riding on this road would be in significantly more danger than an adult would, to say nothing of the skill and experience it takes to navigate so many simultaneous conflicts safely. On the other hand, if you walk west from my house, you can go the better part of a mile through a quiet, shady neighborhood before hitting a main road. Now what is "local" and what is "neighborhood"? Is the grocery store about a 3 minute walk east of my house not "local" just because to get there you have to at least cross this busy, relatively dangerous arterial? I don't think that makes sense. However, it's definitely not part of my neighborhood in the go ride around the neighborhood sense I understood as a child growing up in the suburbs. So in my view I am not changing the scope of the conversation, but rather trying to draw your attention to a distinction that may not exist in the locales you have experience with, but is important in some of those you don't.
    - 3y ago