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And what is the cost difference in fuel? Gas is pretty expensive, and some EVs are cheap or even free to charge How do total ownership costs compare?

by nico 3y ago

adt2bt 3y ago
Varies based on how cheap your electricity is and expensive your gas is but my experience has been about $1000/yr in just gas savings according to my teslas calculations, we don’t commute with it tho, so it could pay off faster for commuters, but still on the order of years to break even. A big difference is maintenance though. No oil changes, mechanical issues, etc. Just new tires when they’re worn out and occasional problems.
huytersd 3y ago
I have a solar roof and live in a hot part of the US. I haven’t paid to charge my Tesla in more than 2 years (besides long road trips though I usually end up taking our ICE vehicle for those). I go through a tank of gas in roughly 10 days. That’s around $200 a month or $2500 a year. Also no oil changes/filter replacements adds up.
usea 3y ago
I recently compared low-end cars in the US by 10-year cost of ownership, including purchase price, tax incentives, etc. A new Bolt was cheaper than even a pre-owned Civic.
- jjav 3y ago
  Please show you math on that one. I can find plenty of used Honda Civics on craigslist for well under 10K. How are you getting a new Bolt (29K MSRP) for less?
  - usea 3y ago
    My post is about the cumulative cost over ten years, not only the purchase price. And naturally it depends on the condition of the car you're comparing. You could find a broken civic for less than 1k! I chose to compare a 2016 Civic with ~60k miles to the 2023 Bolt with ~0 miles. The market price for the Civic is ~18k [0], and the lowest for which you can realistically get a Bolt is the EUV for ~32k [1]. I also considered 12.5k in state and federal tax breaks, which decrease the purchase price of the Bolt to 19.5k. Here is a cumulative vehicle cost calculator https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ It makes a graph, from which we can look at the value for year 10. Add a 2023 Bolt, and a 2016 Civic. Change the price of the Bolt to $19.5k, and the Civic to 18k. Choose your state for energy prices. You may also change the gas price or the number of miles you drive. Click Get Results. My results are Civic: 52k, and Bolt: 45k. That's assuming that the ratio between gas and energy prices doesn't change in the next ten years. [0]: The site itself pulls a value of 18,640 from somewhere, but my 18k value came from online listings. My wife looked for these, and I think she mainly used KBB. [1]: The Bolt EV cannot be purchased, only the EUV. I called about 20 dealerships. After 3 weeks I had gotten several offers to buy vehicles for 32k and higher, but none lower.
    - thiago_fm 3y ago
      Can't access the website, but you are likely aren't including depreciation. To me, it looks like you are trying to prove your point without actually making a fair comparison. Also, a Civic is a much better car than a Bolt, it's a silly comparison to make. You should compare a Bolt with a car with similar features like space, how it feels to drive one etc.
      - usea 3y ago
        The comparison is on cost. It is explicitly not a goal to include something like how it feels to drive one. I don't like cars, and none of them feel good to drive. I don't want a car, but I have to own one for transportation. I want to own the cheapest one I can that can still reasonably and safely get me around. I don't care that you think it's ugly or whatever. I'm not using that as criteria. You have no reason to question my motivation, and it's unreasonable to make up possible deficiencies you imagine my methodology might have without even attempting to understand what is there. I provided plenty of information. The link works. Depreciation never enters into it, nor should it. The model is that you buy the car, drive it for ten years, and then add up how much you spent on everything: The original purchase, fuel, maintenance, insurace, registration, etc. The value of the vehicle at any point after you buy it is irrelevant. You never sell it. It simply ceases to exist at the end of ten years. If you think I should include a sale price in the model, it will not be favorable to the car that sells for 15k less at t=0 and is 7 years older. But I'm not including that, because it's not useful. I'm looking at the cost for driving a car for ten years. When I do, a new bolt is cheaper than a used civic. The prices are very similar (18k vs 19.5k) after tax break. And the electric one costs a lot less to drive over time, so after ten years you spent less money. It's not complicated, and the math bears it out easily. I brought receipts. Just look at them. Or do it yourself. Or propose your own model.
        jjav 3y ago
        > Depreciation never enters into it, nor should it. Well that is not a realistic comparison. Residual value absolutely must be considered in the comparison. (I don't know which car it would favor, didn't try to research that. But either way, you need to include the residual value in the computation.) > It simply ceases to exist at the end of ten years. I mean but of course it doesn't! The car doesn't evaporate. You can sell it after those 10 years and get some money back. It's not realistic to just ignore that.
jjav 3y ago
> Gas is pretty expensive, and some EVs are cheap or even free to charge How are you charging an EV for free? I know some employers offer that, if you have a sweet deal like that I get it, but that is not the norm. Here in Silicon Valley with daytime electricity being 73c/kWh thanks to PG&E, charging is pretty expensive too.
- Zanni 3y ago
  Where are you getting that figure? $0.73/kWh is insane. Rates in Hawaii (known for expensive electricity) are like 1/3 of that. I can't find anything close to that on this rate sheet (current as of June 1, 2023: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/customer-service/other-services/alternative-energy-providers/community-choice-aggregation/svce_rateclasscomparison.pdf https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/customer-service/...
  - jjav 3y ago
    I get the number from my October'23 PG&E bill in front of me. I'm on the EV2A plan. The numbers on that website link are not what they charge on the actual bill. I don't know why they are allowed to publish fake numbers. Here are the exact numbers from my October bill: Peak rate: 58.4 delivery + 14.8 generation = 73.2 c/kWh Part peak: 47.4 delivery + 8.3 generation = 55.7 c/kWh Off-peak: 27.2 delivery + 7.1 generation = 34.4 c/kWh
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  Employer is one option, but free L2 charging isn't that rare around me in Southern California. A lot of grocery stores, pharmacies, department stores and similar businesses use free charging to differentiate themselves from competitors.
  - jjav 3y ago
    Interesting. In this area there are no free public chargers. The best one we've found is at Whole Foods but it was around 60c/kWh (don't have my notes here for exact price). Maybe because there are so many EVs in norcal that businesses can't afford to make these free.

And what is the cost difference in fuel? Gas is pretty expensive, and some EVs are cheap or even free to charge How do total ownership costs compare?

by nico 3y ago

And what is the cost difference in fuel? Gas is pretty expensive, and some EVs are cheap or even free to charge How do total ownership costs compare?

adt2bt 3y ago

Varies based on how cheap your electricity is and expensive your gas is but my experience has been about $1000/yr in just gas savings according to my teslas calculations, we don’t commute with it tho, so it could pay off faster for commuters, but still on the order of years to break even. A big difference is maintenance though. No oil changes, mechanical issues, etc. Just new tires when they’re worn out and occasional problems.

huytersd 3y ago

I have a solar roof and live in a hot part of the US. I haven’t paid to charge my Tesla in more than 2 years (besides long road trips though I usually end up taking our ICE vehicle for those). I go through a tank of gas in roughly 10 days. That’s around $200 a month or $2500 a year. Also no oil changes/filter replacements adds up.

usea 3y ago

I recently compared low-end cars in the US by 10-year cost of ownership, including purchase price, tax incentives, etc. A new Bolt was cheaper than even a pre-owned Civic.

jjav 3y ago
Please show you math on that one. I can find plenty of used Honda Civics on craigslist for well under 10K. How are you getting a new Bolt (29K MSRP) for less?
- usea 3y ago
  My post is about the cumulative cost over ten years, not only the purchase price. And naturally it depends on the condition of the car you're comparing. You could find a broken civic for less than 1k! I chose to compare a 2016 Civic with ~60k miles to the 2023 Bolt with ~0 miles. The market price for the Civic is ~18k [0], and the lowest for which you can realistically get a Bolt is the EUV for ~32k [1]. I also considered 12.5k in state and federal tax breaks, which decrease the purchase price of the Bolt to 19.5k. Here is a cumulative vehicle cost calculator https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ It makes a graph, from which we can look at the value for year 10. Add a 2023 Bolt, and a 2016 Civic. Change the price of the Bolt to $19.5k, and the Civic to 18k. Choose your state for energy prices. You may also change the gas price or the number of miles you drive. Click Get Results. My results are Civic: 52k, and Bolt: 45k. That's assuming that the ratio between gas and energy prices doesn't change in the next ten years. [0]: The site itself pulls a value of 18,640 from somewhere, but my 18k value came from online listings. My wife looked for these, and I think she mainly used KBB. [1]: The Bolt EV cannot be purchased, only the EUV. I called about 20 dealerships. After 3 weeks I had gotten several offers to buy vehicles for 32k and higher, but none lower.
  - thiago_fm 3y ago
    Can't access the website, but you are likely aren't including depreciation. To me, it looks like you are trying to prove your point without actually making a fair comparison. Also, a Civic is a much better car than a Bolt, it's a silly comparison to make. You should compare a Bolt with a car with similar features like space, how it feels to drive one etc.
    - usea 3y ago
      The comparison is on cost. It is explicitly not a goal to include something like how it feels to drive one. I don't like cars, and none of them feel good to drive. I don't want a car, but I have to own one for transportation. I want to own the cheapest one I can that can still reasonably and safely get me around. I don't care that you think it's ugly or whatever. I'm not using that as criteria. You have no reason to question my motivation, and it's unreasonable to make up possible deficiencies you imagine my methodology might have without even attempting to understand what is there. I provided plenty of information. The link works. Depreciation never enters into it, nor should it. The model is that you buy the car, drive it for ten years, and then add up how much you spent on everything: The original purchase, fuel, maintenance, insurace, registration, etc. The value of the vehicle at any point after you buy it is irrelevant. You never sell it. It simply ceases to exist at the end of ten years. If you think I should include a sale price in the model, it will not be favorable to the car that sells for 15k less at t=0 and is 7 years older. But I'm not including that, because it's not useful. I'm looking at the cost for driving a car for ten years. When I do, a new bolt is cheaper than a used civic. The prices are very similar (18k vs 19.5k) after tax break. And the electric one costs a lot less to drive over time, so after ten years you spent less money. It's not complicated, and the math bears it out easily. I brought receipts. Just look at them. Or do it yourself. Or propose your own model.
      - jjav 3y ago
        > Depreciation never enters into it, nor should it. Well that is not a realistic comparison. Residual value absolutely must be considered in the comparison. (I don't know which car it would favor, didn't try to research that. But either way, you need to include the residual value in the computation.) > It simply ceases to exist at the end of ten years. I mean but of course it doesn't! The car doesn't evaporate. You can sell it after those 10 years and get some money back. It's not realistic to just ignore that.

jjav 3y ago

> Gas is pretty expensive, and some EVs are cheap or even free to charge How are you charging an EV for free? I know some employers offer that, if you have a sweet deal like that I get it, but that is not the norm. Here in Silicon Valley with daytime electricity being 73c/kWh thanks to PG&E, charging is pretty expensive too.

Zanni 3y ago
Where are you getting that figure? $0.73/kWh is insane. Rates in Hawaii (known for expensive electricity) are like 1/3 of that. I can't find anything close to that on this rate sheet (current as of June 1, 2023: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/customer-service/other-services/alternative-energy-providers/community-choice-aggregation/svce_rateclasscomparison.pdf https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/customer-service/...
- jjav 3y ago
  I get the number from my October'23 PG&E bill in front of me. I'm on the EV2A plan. The numbers on that website link are not what they charge on the actual bill. I don't know why they are allowed to publish fake numbers. Here are the exact numbers from my October bill: Peak rate: 58.4 delivery + 14.8 generation = 73.2 c/kWh Part peak: 47.4 delivery + 8.3 generation = 55.7 c/kWh Off-peak: 27.2 delivery + 7.1 generation = 34.4 c/kWh
Rebelgecko 3y ago
Employer is one option, but free L2 charging isn't that rare around me in Southern California. A lot of grocery stores, pharmacies, department stores and similar businesses use free charging to differentiate themselves from competitors.
- jjav 3y ago
  Interesting. In this area there are no free public chargers. The best one we've found is at Whole Foods but it was around 60c/kWh (don't have my notes here for exact price). Maybe because there are so many EVs in norcal that businesses can't afford to make these free.