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I wish they listed the ATP for electric vehicles instead of dancing around it like it’s a ballroom. A $14k drop is great, but what is the average price? EDIT:
by falcolas 3y ago
I wish they listed the ATP for electric vehicles instead of dancing around it like it’s a ballroom.
A $14k drop is great, but what is the average price?
EDIT: $53,469, just shy of a $10k premium over ICE vehicles.
https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2023-08-09-Kelley-Blue-Book-Analysis-Average-New-Vehicle-Transaction-Prices-Up-Less-Than-1-Year-Over-Year,-Smallest-Increase-in-Decade https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2023-08-09-Kelley-Blue-Book-Analys...
- toomuchtodo 3y agoIs that before the $7500 federal tax credit and potential states credits?
- nico 3y agoAnd what is the cost difference in fuel? Gas is pretty expensive, and some EVs are cheap or even free to charge How do total ownership costs compare?
- adt2bt 3y agoVaries based on how cheap your electricity is and expensive your gas is but my experience has been about $1000/yr in just gas savings according to my teslas calculations, we don’t commute with it tho, so it could pay off faster for commuters, but still on the order of years to break even. A big difference is maintenance though. No oil changes, mechanical issues, etc. Just new tires when they’re worn out and occasional problems.
- huytersd 3y agoI have a solar roof and live in a hot part of the US. I haven’t paid to charge my Tesla in more than 2 years (besides long road trips though I usually end up taking our ICE vehicle for those). I go through a tank of gas in roughly 10 days. That’s around $200 a month or $2500 a year. Also no oil changes/filter replacements adds up.
- usea 3y agoI recently compared low-end cars in the US by 10-year cost of ownership, including purchase price, tax incentives, etc. A new Bolt was cheaper than even a pre-owned Civic.
- jjav 3y agoPlease show you math on that one. I can find plenty of used Honda Civics on craigslist for well under 10K. How are you getting a new Bolt (29K MSRP) for less?
- usea 3y agoMy post is about the cumulative cost over ten years, not only the purchase price. And naturally it depends on the condition of the car you're comparing. You could find a broken civic for less than 1k! I chose to compare a 2016 Civic with ~60k miles to the 2023 Bolt with ~0 miles. The market price for the Civic is ~18k [0], and the lowest for which you can realistically get a Bolt is the EUV for ~32k [1]. I also considered 12.5k in state and federal tax breaks, which decrease the purchase price of the Bolt to 19.5k. Here is a cumulative vehicle cost calculator https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/ It makes a graph, from which we can look at the value for year 10. Add a 2023 Bolt, and a 2016 Civic. Change the price of the Bolt to $19.5k, and the Civic to 18k. Choose your state for energy prices. You may also change the gas price or the number of miles you drive. Click Get Results. My results are Civic: 52k, and Bolt: 45k. That's assuming that the ratio between gas and energy prices doesn't change in the next ten years. [0]: The site itself pulls a value of 18,640 from somewhere, but my 18k value came from online listings. My wife looked for these, and I think she mainly used KBB. [1]: The Bolt EV cannot be purchased, only the EUV. I called about 20 dealerships. After 3 weeks I had gotten several offers to buy vehicles for 32k and higher, but none lower.
- thiago_fm 3y agoCan't access the website, but you are likely aren't including depreciation. To me, it looks like you are trying to prove your point without actually making a fair comparison. Also, a Civic is a much better car than a Bolt, it's a silly comparison to make. You should compare a Bolt with a car with similar features like space, how it feels to drive one etc.
- jjav 3y ago> Gas is pretty expensive, and some EVs are cheap or even free to charge How are you charging an EV for free? I know some employers offer that, if you have a sweet deal like that I get it, but that is not the norm. Here in Silicon Valley with daytime electricity being 73c/kWh thanks to PG&E, charging is pretty expensive too.
- Zanni 3y agoWhere are you getting that figure? $0.73/kWh is insane. Rates in Hawaii (known for expensive electricity) are like 1/3 of that. I can't find anything close to that on this rate sheet (current as of June 1, 2023: https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/customer-service/other-services/alternative-energy-providers/community-choice-aggregation/svce_rateclasscomparison.pdf https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/customer-service/...
- jjav 3y agoI get the number from my October'23 PG&E bill in front of me. I'm on the EV2A plan. The numbers on that website link are not what they charge on the actual bill. I don't know why they are allowed to publish fake numbers. Here are the exact numbers from my October bill: Peak rate: 58.4 delivery + 14.8 generation = 73.2 c/kWh Part peak: 47.4 delivery + 8.3 generation = 55.7 c/kWh Off-peak: 27.2 delivery + 7.1 generation = 34.4 c/kWh
- Rebelgecko 3y agoEmployer is one option, but free L2 charging isn't that rare around me in Southern California. A lot of grocery stores, pharmacies, department stores and similar businesses use free charging to differentiate themselves from competitors.
- jjav 3y agoInteresting. In this area there are no free public chargers. The best one we've found is at Whole Foods but it was around 60c/kWh (don't have my notes here for exact price). Maybe because there are so many EVs in norcal that businesses can't afford to make these free.
- bakugo 3y ago> EDIT: $53,469, just shy of a $10k premium over ICE vehicles. I'm guessing this doesn't account for the fact that you'll have to buy a new one every 5 years when the batteries go bad.
- coryrc 3y agoWeird, I guess I didn't drive my 2013 Leaf with original batteries 100 miles today.
- r00fus 3y agoMy 5yo EV is doing great and the range degradation is like 3%. 68k miles on it also.
- lostmsu 3y agoWhat model?
- wlesieutre 3y agoOh no 5-10% less range better throw the whole car out
- alex_duf 3y agoThis is just factually incorrect
- thebruce87m 3y agoCan you explain what made you write this comment? I see it all the time on Facebook and I’d love to understand what drives people to spout misinformation about EVs. Cobalt, fires, diesel powered charging stations, they simply can’t wait to spread some nonsense.
- jjav 3y agoI mean the OP is exagerating wildly, but the range does decrease. We had a Fiat 500 leased for 3 years and in just 3 years the range decreased from ~90 to about 75 (almost 20% decrease).
- thinkcontext 3y agoWhere are you getting a $10K premium? I don't see an ICE ATP listed as you maintain. The number that you appear to be referring to $44K, is for non luxury vehicles, which is not directly comparable to the EV category. I would guess the premium is closer to $5K, the difference from the $48K ATP for all transactions. Those are 90%+ of all transactions.
- kennywinker 3y ago> The number that you appear to be referring to $44K, is for non luxury vehicles, which is not directly comparable to the EV category. I mean, that's the comparison that matters to most people. The vast majority of cars are not luxury cars. Just because EVs target a little up-market, that doesn't exempt them from the reality that they're being compared to ICE cars in lower price categories by most buyers.
- Retric 3y agoIf looking for “cars for most buyers” then you may as well strip out the 100+k EV’s from these pools which then lowers the average.
- kennywinker 3y agoI mean yeah, fair point. Average sale price of a category of car is probably a bad way to gauge affordability. A better question would be what percentile of car purchases do ev prices fall into.
- gnicholas 3y agoI was looking at the new Mazda SUV, and the PHEV version was a $12k premium over the gas version. I have a PHEV and enjoy the benefits, but I’m not sure it’s worth an extra 12 grand (25% more than the regular version). I get that there are some cost savings in the long run, but electricity costs a lot where I live, and insurance costs also go up with a more expensive vehicle.
- 3y ago
- hcnews 3y agoIronically, the EVs are currently priced higher due to Fed+State tax incentives. I bet the EV prices would be much lower if there were no such tax incentives (this is evidenced by the fact that EV prices are usually updated the day after the govt. changes these values).
- huytersd 3y agoDo you have any sources because that’s some backward thinking that needs some strong evidence? It would mean all the car manufacturers would have to collude to raise their prices by the amount of the incentives.
- ehnto 3y agoThey don't have to collude to react to a change in the market simultaneously. It has precedent too, solar panel incentives, home building incentives etc. When government grants show up, vendors can take it into account if they want. If enough of them do, the market price has changed and so everyone can put their prices up. They are in a market that is not racing their prices to the bottom to drive demand so it works out.
- yieldcrv 3y agohttps://katv.com/news/nation-world/bidens-ev-tax-credits-cancelled-out-by-automaker-price-hikes https://katv.com/news/nation-world/bidens-ev-tax-credits-can...
- labcomputer 3y agoIt’s funny how you assume they need to collude instead of each acting in its own independent selfish interest. Why does one need to present strong evidence that prices will rise by $7500 when the demand curve suddenly shifts right by $7500 due to government intervention? Surely this is just Econ 101.
- SubiculumCode 3y agoThis seems like a good test to determine the amount of competition in an economic sector. With suficient competition, the price will race to the slimmest sustainable profit margin. I mean you could try to raise your price up by $7500, but if your competitors don't, who will be getting sales? In any case, EV prices have been dropping over recent years, and I haven't seen a $7500 bump in prices, just in more people being willing to go for a nicer vehicle instead.
- xbmcuser 3y agoSo what battery production prices are falling 10% a year around the same for solar and wind electricity. As more electric car manufacturing ramps up with more investments prices will keep falling. Most people finance a purchase like cars are paying it over 6-7 years. Today looking at gas prices the fuel cost saving can be anywhere between $100-300 a month depending on how much you drive where you charge. So even if an electric car that is 10k more expensive than ice is actually still cheaper today for a lot of people if you look at monthly expense. And each year it gets cheaper for more people to go electric as electric cars get cheaper. This is going to accelerate the price drops are too rapid for most people to understand cost analysis research from 2 years ago might no longer be valid today and today cost analysis wont be valid in another 1-2 years
- b112 3y agoSad truth, as you say, most people finance their cars, and with higher rates, those fuel savings mostly vanish, due to interest on the extra 15k loan over 4 or 8 years.