4 ms·

What's the UKs storage plan for renewables? For pretty much every country building renewable, they've all been super quiet on the storage side.

jodrellblank 3y ago
I haven't heard or looked for anything, and I don't think any such technology exists at reasonable prices to do grid scale storage for an entire country (but maybe it could! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32197012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32197012 ). Browsing around on OpenInfraMap I have seen some grid scale battery storage, e.g. https://openinframap.org/#9.74/51.6119/-2.1051/L,P,S https://openinframap.org/#9.74/51.6119/-2.1051/L,P,S Minety 150MW battery down as 266MWh storage capacity so there are some around. There's independent company Octopus Energy which pays ordinary people with solar / battery / wind turbines to export energy to the grid, and if you're an interested geeky customer you can download the half-hourly pricing so you can tune your system to import cheap power and export at peak times; they do this to encourage rollout of renewables - https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-doubles-payments-for-solar-export-customers/ https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-doubles-payments...
- Incipient 3y ago
  Lithium batteries unfortunately aren't storage for a grid, they're...capacitors. They add buffer to stabilise the grid and allow transition between sources. Without any form of meaningful storage (eg pumped hydro) the UK grid will be in trouble.
  - freshpots 3y ago
    https://www.tutorialspoint.com/difference-between-battery-and-capacitor https://www.tutorialspoint.com/difference-between-battery-an... You are fundamentally incorrect and either do not understand what a capacitor is or are unwilling to use the correct language in an attempt to prove a point...which unfortunately undermines it. Additionally, smart grids are already capable of transitioning between sources and solar or wind with battery storage are more cost effective than fossil fuel generation today: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/15/wind-solar-power-now-the-clear-champions-on-cost/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/15/wind-solar-power-now-th...
    - Incipient 3y ago
      Sorry I should have said LIKE a capacitor in terms of function. You are correct they are not a capacitor in terms of design and function. I'd have expected people here be able to understand that. Fundamentally, at a grid level, lithium batteries can't provide what the average person considers "storage", that is running the grid from said storage. When people hear lithium battery, they think of a phone or laptop - the battery is the sole source of power for 6-12 hours. On a grid however, lithium batteries provide very short duration stabilisation from "noisy" supply, absorb spikes in generation and boost troughs. You cannot cost effectivly power the grid from lithium batteries on a still night. Pumped hydro etc are needed to cover prolonged periods of low supply (and absorb prolonged periods of oversupply).
  - jodrellblank 3y ago
    Dinorwig in Wales is pumped hydro and stores 9.1GWh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station Cruachan in Scotland stores 7GWh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station Ffestiniog in Wales stores 1.4GWh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station Foyer at Loch Ness exists, can’t quickly see how many Wh it stores. Coire-Glas is proposed and could double the existing electricity storage apparently, which would make it huge, but not yet approved https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-65015217 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-650... Still, powering a country though a cold dim calm winter is a lot of power; the UK uses around 800GWh/day of electricity, not counting gas/energy for heating. To store a week or a month or a winter of that is not a solved problem.

jodrellblank 3y ago

I haven't heard or looked for anything, and I don't think any such technology exists at reasonable prices to do grid scale storage for an entire country (but maybe it could! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32197012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32197012 ). Browsing around on OpenInfraMap I have seen some grid scale battery storage, e.g. https://openinframap.org/#9.74/51.6119/-2.1051/L,P,S https://openinframap.org/#9.74/51.6119/-2.1051/L,P,S Minety 150MW battery down as 266MWh storage capacity so there are some around. There's independent company Octopus Energy which pays ordinary people with solar / battery / wind turbines to export energy to the grid, and if you're an interested geeky customer you can download the half-hourly pricing so you can tune your system to import cheap power and export at peak times; they do this to encourage rollout of renewables - https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-doubles-payments-for-solar-export-customers/ https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-doubles-payments...

Incipient 3y ago
Lithium batteries unfortunately aren't storage for a grid, they're...capacitors. They add buffer to stabilise the grid and allow transition between sources. Without any form of meaningful storage (eg pumped hydro) the UK grid will be in trouble.
- freshpots 3y ago
  https://www.tutorialspoint.com/difference-between-battery-and-capacitor https://www.tutorialspoint.com/difference-between-battery-an... You are fundamentally incorrect and either do not understand what a capacitor is or are unwilling to use the correct language in an attempt to prove a point...which unfortunately undermines it. Additionally, smart grids are already capable of transitioning between sources and solar or wind with battery storage are more cost effective than fossil fuel generation today: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/15/wind-solar-power-now-the-clear-champions-on-cost/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/15/wind-solar-power-now-th...
  - Incipient 3y ago
    Sorry I should have said LIKE a capacitor in terms of function. You are correct they are not a capacitor in terms of design and function. I'd have expected people here be able to understand that. Fundamentally, at a grid level, lithium batteries can't provide what the average person considers "storage", that is running the grid from said storage. When people hear lithium battery, they think of a phone or laptop - the battery is the sole source of power for 6-12 hours. On a grid however, lithium batteries provide very short duration stabilisation from "noisy" supply, absorb spikes in generation and boost troughs. You cannot cost effectivly power the grid from lithium batteries on a still night. Pumped hydro etc are needed to cover prolonged periods of low supply (and absorb prolonged periods of oversupply).
- jodrellblank 3y ago
  Dinorwig in Wales is pumped hydro and stores 9.1GWh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station Cruachan in Scotland stores 7GWh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruachan_Power_Station Ffestiniog in Wales stores 1.4GWh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station Foyer at Loch Ness exists, can’t quickly see how many Wh it stores. Coire-Glas is proposed and could double the existing electricity storage apparently, which would make it huge, but not yet approved https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-65015217 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-650... Still, powering a country though a cold dim calm winter is a lot of power; the UK uses around 800GWh/day of electricity, not counting gas/energy for heating. To store a week or a month or a winter of that is not a solved problem.