4 ms·

And what about the Council of the EU?

malermeister 3y ago
The Council of the EU is a meeting of ministers of various national governments, all of them elected by their respective electorate.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  So the organization that selects the majority of the Commission Members (26 out of 27) is also the one that is the most distantly tied to the voting public. None of the CotEU are directly elected. The council also appears to have a complex rotating Presidency and multiple "configurations" in which different ministers hold varying amounts of power -- all of which adds abstraction and makes it more difficult to hold members accountable at the level of the voting public. If I were being cynical, I would assume that this was a deliberate attempt to insulate the EU executive selection process from any sort of direct electoral accountability. But maybe that's good? I don't know.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    All the commission members are elected in the respective member states elections... Ehy isn't that democratic? Rotating presendency, nice thing for an organisation made up of 26 member nations. And all those ministers are nominated following democratic elections in each member state. And as such, they are very much accountable to their electorate every 4-5 years. >> I don't know. I can confirm, you don't.
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      > I can confirm, you don't. I'm sorry if I insulted or embarrassed you. That wasn't my intent. My view is that the design of governing bodies is another area of engineering, and you can learn a lot about design goals by looking at the resulting systems. But I realize this can also become very personal.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Defining structures of government is not engineering, trying to apply the principles to both doesn't work.
        matthewdgreen 3y ago
        I don’t agree with that statement at all. I think it encompasses a very myopic definition of engineering, and implies that humans can’t build or evaluate government structures on the basis of specific design goals.
hef19898 3y ago
Just checked, it is made up of the respective ministers / secretaries of the memebwr states (foreign affairs, interior,...). So, also democratic as, as those ministers are nominated by the national governments after elections. EDIT: There seven institutions of the EU: Parliament (elected directly), European Council (assembly of democratically elected head of state / government of memeber states), Council of the EU (see above, only for ministers), European Commission (nominated by the European Council, approved by EU parliament and thus democratic), Court of Justice (not voted for, but who votes for judges?), Central Bank and Court of Auditors. All in all, pretty democratic and taking into account the fact that EU is compossed of souvereign nations with their own democracies. Complex, sure, but no idea why people think that it is some kind of dictatorship.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  I didn't say it was some kind of dictatorship. I do note, however, that the bulk of the EU executive is selected by an organization that is maximally disconnected from the voting public. And this seems to be by design. Consider the situation described in TFA. Let's say you, as an EU citizen, wanted to change the makeup of the Commission to rectify this. You could vote for a new MEP, but this would have relatively little impact since the Parliament doesn't select most members of the Commission. You could vote for a new national government (assuming this was your highest-priority issue!), and then hope that the heads-of-state would appoint a new President. But this would not replace the remaining 26/27 Commission members. Finally, you could hope that your new government would appoint new Ministers to the CotEU. But the CotEU has many Ministers and a complex rotating presidency. The Council also has policy "configurations" in which different national ministers have varying degrees of influence. So in the worst case, it could take years for your new Ministers to reach a position where they could influence the composition of the Commission. Even if voters in many countries felt as you did, it might be very difficult to turn this into concrete changes the makeup of the Commission. It is hard not to see this indirection as the key design goal of this structure. And maybe in the end that's a good thing. TFA, however, makes me worry that it can facilitate some very bad outcomes.
  - hef19898 3y ago

The Council of the EU is a meeting of ministers of various national governments, all of them elected by their respective electorate.

matthewdgreen 3y ago
So the organization that selects the majority of the Commission Members (26 out of 27) is also the one that is the most distantly tied to the voting public. None of the CotEU are directly elected. The council also appears to have a complex rotating Presidency and multiple "configurations" in which different ministers hold varying amounts of power -- all of which adds abstraction and makes it more difficult to hold members accountable at the level of the voting public. If I were being cynical, I would assume that this was a deliberate attempt to insulate the EU executive selection process from any sort of direct electoral accountability. But maybe that's good? I don't know.
- hef19898 3y ago
  All the commission members are elected in the respective member states elections... Ehy isn't that democratic? Rotating presendency, nice thing for an organisation made up of 26 member nations. And all those ministers are nominated following democratic elections in each member state. And as such, they are very much accountable to their electorate every 4-5 years. >> I don't know. I can confirm, you don't.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    > I can confirm, you don't. I'm sorry if I insulted or embarrassed you. That wasn't my intent. My view is that the design of governing bodies is another area of engineering, and you can learn a lot about design goals by looking at the resulting systems. But I realize this can also become very personal.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Defining structures of government is not engineering, trying to apply the principles to both doesn't work.
      - matthewdgreen 3y ago
        I don’t agree with that statement at all. I think it encompasses a very myopic definition of engineering, and implies that humans can’t build or evaluate government structures on the basis of specific design goals.

hef19898 3y ago

Just checked, it is made up of the respective ministers / secretaries of the memebwr states (foreign affairs, interior,...). So, also democratic as, as those ministers are nominated by the national governments after elections. EDIT: There seven institutions of the EU: Parliament (elected directly), European Council (assembly of democratically elected head of state / government of memeber states), Council of the EU (see above, only for ministers), European Commission (nominated by the European Council, approved by EU parliament and thus democratic), Court of Justice (not voted for, but who votes for judges?), Central Bank and Court of Auditors. All in all, pretty democratic and taking into account the fact that EU is compossed of souvereign nations with their own democracies. Complex, sure, but no idea why people think that it is some kind of dictatorship.

matthewdgreen 3y ago
I didn't say it was some kind of dictatorship. I do note, however, that the bulk of the EU executive is selected by an organization that is maximally disconnected from the voting public. And this seems to be by design. Consider the situation described in TFA. Let's say you, as an EU citizen, wanted to change the makeup of the Commission to rectify this. You could vote for a new MEP, but this would have relatively little impact since the Parliament doesn't select most members of the Commission. You could vote for a new national government (assuming this was your highest-priority issue!), and then hope that the heads-of-state would appoint a new President. But this would not replace the remaining 26/27 Commission members. Finally, you could hope that your new government would appoint new Ministers to the CotEU. But the CotEU has many Ministers and a complex rotating presidency. The Council also has policy "configurations" in which different national ministers have varying degrees of influence. So in the worst case, it could take years for your new Ministers to reach a position where they could influence the composition of the Commission. Even if voters in many countries felt as you did, it might be very difficult to turn this into concrete changes the makeup of the Commission. It is hard not to see this indirection as the key design goal of this structure. And maybe in the end that's a good thing. TFA, however, makes me worry that it can facilitate some very bad outcomes.
- hef19898 3y ago