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In the UK, the Home Secretary is pressuring the Police to interpret the phrase "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" (a slogan often used in pro-P

In the UK, the Home Secretary is pressuring the Police to interpret the phrase "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" (a slogan often used in pro-Palestinian demonstrations) as an "expression of a violent desire to see Israel erased from the world", possibly making it a "racially aggravated" public order offence. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67110119 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67110119

rayiner 3y ago
But it does mean that, if you have even the most passing familiarity with the geography of the region.
- skissane 3y ago
  Taken literally, the phrase could be understood as simply a call for a free State of Palestine composed of the West Bank and Gaza, with internationally recognised Israel remaining intact – "from the river" meaning the West Bank's boundary with the Jordan River, "to the sea" meaning the coast of the Gaza Strip. Maybe even with some sort of corridor with right of free passage connecting the two (see this NGO proposal – https://geneva-accord.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/corridor.pdf https://geneva-accord.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/corrido... ) Now, I agree in practice many (most?) people using this phrase don't mean it in just that sense, and actually mean it as a call for the abolition of the State of Israel. But it doesn't seem impossible that some people who use it actually do mean it in just the literal sense I suggest. The phrase is inherently ambiguous–which is one of the reasons why I think the potential criminalisation of an ambiguous political slogan (one which I myself would never use or endorse) is rather problematic.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    The phrase “from the river to the sea” was used by the PLO since 1964, a time when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza. It’s unambiguously a reference to eliminating the state of Israel. I agree that we shouldn’t criminalize political slogans.
    - skissane 3y ago
      > The phrase “from the river to the sea” was used by the PLO since 1964, a time when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza. It’s unambiguously a reference to eliminating the state of Israel. The meaning of a phrase is not fixed by its origin. A lot of people using the phrase today weren’t even born then. I’m sure many of them mean it in the exact same sense that the PLO meant it in 1964-but can we be sure that everyone who currently uses it means it that way? I don’t think we can, it seems entirely plausible that some of its users have reinterpreted it to refer to a more moderate position

rayiner 3y ago

But it does mean that, if you have even the most passing familiarity with the geography of the region.

skissane 3y ago
Taken literally, the phrase could be understood as simply a call for a free State of Palestine composed of the West Bank and Gaza, with internationally recognised Israel remaining intact – "from the river" meaning the West Bank's boundary with the Jordan River, "to the sea" meaning the coast of the Gaza Strip. Maybe even with some sort of corridor with right of free passage connecting the two (see this NGO proposal – https://geneva-accord.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/corridor.pdf https://geneva-accord.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/corrido... ) Now, I agree in practice many (most?) people using this phrase don't mean it in just that sense, and actually mean it as a call for the abolition of the State of Israel. But it doesn't seem impossible that some people who use it actually do mean it in just the literal sense I suggest. The phrase is inherently ambiguous–which is one of the reasons why I think the potential criminalisation of an ambiguous political slogan (one which I myself would never use or endorse) is rather problematic.
- rayiner 3y ago
  The phrase “from the river to the sea” was used by the PLO since 1964, a time when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza. It’s unambiguously a reference to eliminating the state of Israel. I agree that we shouldn’t criminalize political slogans.
  - skissane 3y ago
    > The phrase “from the river to the sea” was used by the PLO since 1964, a time when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza. It’s unambiguously a reference to eliminating the state of Israel. The meaning of a phrase is not fixed by its origin. A lot of people using the phrase today weren’t even born then. I’m sure many of them mean it in the exact same sense that the PLO meant it in 1964-but can we be sure that everyone who currently uses it means it that way? I don’t think we can, it seems entirely plausible that some of its users have reinterpreted it to refer to a more moderate position