6 ms·

Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. But, the European Parliament is against

by kubb 3y ago

Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. But, the European Parliament is against this legislation, and for the moment it’s not passing.

admissionsguy 3y ago
> We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. Well, I actually do.
- Loughla 3y ago
  Can you expand on why, please? From the outside looking in, most European countries seem much better at most things than where I live in the US (unless you're very wealthy, I guess).
  - hef19898 3y ago
    You are on forum of temporarily embarased billionaires (now coping with mass FAANG layoffs), so what do you expect?
    - refurb 3y ago
      This is kind of a lazy answer. Who said anything about billionaires? Many people see the benefit of a more vibrant growing economy in the US vs the EU and at the end of the day, end up personally benefiting from it to with (much) higher wages.
  - zo1 3y ago
    Not OP. But some of us have seen how the life can function "just fine" even without the huge amount of control and laws that the EU has. I'm gonna be a bit crass here to convey my point. I currently live in a "shithole" country, and I'd still not want to live in the EU in comparison. I've had this discussion with many people that came back, with family that lives there, with my wife seeing if we want to move there "for our kids future", and always it ends up being a "No", or "let's see if it looks better next year". Sure, maybe there is a pocket here, a pocket there, or a city/state/province etc that I would want to live in, or is "Okay". But the rest looks positively horrifying. For starters, I don't want to live in a place where I either have to be ridiculously wealthy or a slave my entire life just to own land that isn't a tiny capsule apartment in an overcrowded city. Land I probably won't be able to do what I want on exactly, anyways. Anywho, I'm biased. I see Europe as the "pathetic" and "weak" West that is basically slowly killing itself out of some sort of collective cultural guilt for who knows what. It's killing itself in the name of some noble good, whilst the world filled with state-level bullies is destroying the world. No thank you.
    - ur-whale 3y ago
      > Land I probably won't be able to do what I want on exactly, anyways. I can confirm this. One of the myriad of reasons that made me leave the EU for good. Land "ownership" is a joke in the EU. Worse, it's actually a scam: if you own property in most of the western EU, you have about the same rights a tenant would have.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        That is so objectively wrong, I don't even know where to start... Utter Liberitarian none-sense...
      - scott_w 3y ago
        Land ownership has literally fuck all to do with the EU.
  - admissionsguy 3y ago
    There is now a pretty big wealth gap between the US and the "rich" EU countries. I expect it to keep growing. As the EU economy further stagnates, it will become a zero-sum game with, I expect, ever increasing level of government control and eventually repression. Even now I don't agree with your assessment that European countries are much better at most things. Even the glorified "free" healthcare turns out to be neither free nor universal when you actually get to use it.
    - kubb 3y ago
      I’m wondering why didn’t you leave yet? The US doesn’t want to give you a visa or something? Or is the tyranny here stopping you from leaving?
  - tomatotomato37 3y ago
    The big desirable thing about the EU is it's strong social net and relatively modern urban infrastructure. If you like the city or don't have a safety net from some other auxiliary source such as family or church it's superior. Otherwise the US wins out in factors such as an overall more vibrant economy, more personal freedoms, not having a major landwar on its borders, etc. Also all this just applies to the actual good parts of each region. There's no point in comparing rural Alabama to Serbia cause we already know they're both shitholes.
    - sesm 3y ago
      Have you ever been to Serbia? I’ve been living there for the past year and to me it looks like a great place in terms of value for the money.
      - admissionsguy 3y ago
        If it's anything like Poland, it may enable a great material standard of life, but the parochial culture and overall nastiness (and they support Russia, so they must be nasty) will grind you down over time.
inglor_cz 3y ago
"Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. " More like slow addition of smothering layers of bureaucracy upon bureaucracy until your breathing space is severely limited. Combined with our ghastly demographics, I think our growth is a thing of the past. In many individual EU countries including mine, something like Chat Control 2.0 would not fly and the attention of the public would be very negative; especially east of the Iron Curtain, memories of authoritarian regimes are too strong for people to trust their politicians with this kind of power. Brussels is distant enough that EU politicians can pull off such legislation without the general public being aware of it. The distance between the EC and a random European is way too big. Even bigger than the distance between the Feds and a random American in USA.
- dmcq2 3y ago
  The principle of subsidiarity was supposed to counter making laws affecting individuals like this would, this sort of stuff should be up to individual countries. The bureaucrats are trying to expand out of their remit.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    "The bureaucrats are trying to expand out of their remit." Which, to be frank, was totally expectable and the fact that the system wasn't prepared enough for this behavior constitutes a significant weakness.
- Agingcoder 3y ago
  Hungary and Poland don’t strike me as very lax governments, so it’s not obvious to me that people in Eastern Europe would actively fight that kind of legislation.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    Locally, such a proposal would immediately become subject of the local cultural war. Journalists would hop on the news and make clickbait of them incessantly. But few people, including the media, pay real attention to anything that happens in Brussels.
blibble 3y ago
> We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. some of us have managed to, it is possible > But, the European Parliament is against this legislation, and for the moment it’s not passing. it will eventually, it always does
waihtis 3y ago
It would be beneficial to understand the underlying mechanics (very untransparent centralization of power to an unelected commission) and the risks involved before smugly dismissing concerns about it.
- quonn 3y ago
  The commission has a member of each EU country and those members come from the elected governments. It‘s just like the government is not elected in many countries but instead the parliament is elected and that votes for a prime minister who chooses his ministers.
  - jowea 3y ago
    If the EU worked like a normal parliamentary government then parliament would have the right to initiate legislation. And it would be able to nominate whoever it wished for president of the commission as long as there was a parliamentary majority. The EU has confederal aspects that don't really work in the ways normal modern democracies work.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Which kind of makes sense, as the fear isbthat the emeber nations loose their sovereignty. Hence, the elected governemnts of those memeber states agreeing on things, with the directly elected EU parliament approving theom, or not. Seems like a reasonably balance here.
riedel 3y ago
As long as the parliament is against a very specific clause chances are low that legislation passes. However, recent EU acts are therefore a mixed bag of incoherent clauses: Comission, council and parliament all push there parts through with lobbying all over the place. In the end it seems that hardly anyone understands the overall mechanics anymore. I would even argue that we sometimes even have too much democracy (well rather too many levels I guess). We would actually need better legislative techniques and a more coherent vision. The EC and their DGs are often understaffed and underqualified IMHO.

by kubb 3y ago

admissionsguy 3y ago

> We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. Well, I actually do.

Loughla 3y ago
Can you expand on why, please? From the outside looking in, most European countries seem much better at most things than where I live in the US (unless you're very wealthy, I guess).
- hef19898 3y ago
  You are on forum of temporarily embarased billionaires (now coping with mass FAANG layoffs), so what do you expect?
  - refurb 3y ago
    This is kind of a lazy answer. Who said anything about billionaires? Many people see the benefit of a more vibrant growing economy in the US vs the EU and at the end of the day, end up personally benefiting from it to with (much) higher wages.
- zo1 3y ago
  Not OP. But some of us have seen how the life can function "just fine" even without the huge amount of control and laws that the EU has. I'm gonna be a bit crass here to convey my point. I currently live in a "shithole" country, and I'd still not want to live in the EU in comparison. I've had this discussion with many people that came back, with family that lives there, with my wife seeing if we want to move there "for our kids future", and always it ends up being a "No", or "let's see if it looks better next year". Sure, maybe there is a pocket here, a pocket there, or a city/state/province etc that I would want to live in, or is "Okay". But the rest looks positively horrifying. For starters, I don't want to live in a place where I either have to be ridiculously wealthy or a slave my entire life just to own land that isn't a tiny capsule apartment in an overcrowded city. Land I probably won't be able to do what I want on exactly, anyways. Anywho, I'm biased. I see Europe as the "pathetic" and "weak" West that is basically slowly killing itself out of some sort of collective cultural guilt for who knows what. It's killing itself in the name of some noble good, whilst the world filled with state-level bullies is destroying the world. No thank you.
  - ur-whale 3y ago
    > Land I probably won't be able to do what I want on exactly, anyways. I can confirm this. One of the myriad of reasons that made me leave the EU for good. Land "ownership" is a joke in the EU. Worse, it's actually a scam: if you own property in most of the western EU, you have about the same rights a tenant would have.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      That is so objectively wrong, I don't even know where to start... Utter Liberitarian none-sense...
    - scott_w 3y ago
      Land ownership has literally fuck all to do with the EU.
- admissionsguy 3y ago
  There is now a pretty big wealth gap between the US and the "rich" EU countries. I expect it to keep growing. As the EU economy further stagnates, it will become a zero-sum game with, I expect, ever increasing level of government control and eventually repression. Even now I don't agree with your assessment that European countries are much better at most things. Even the glorified "free" healthcare turns out to be neither free nor universal when you actually get to use it.
  - kubb 3y ago
    I’m wondering why didn’t you leave yet? The US doesn’t want to give you a visa or something? Or is the tyranny here stopping you from leaving?
- tomatotomato37 3y ago
  The big desirable thing about the EU is it's strong social net and relatively modern urban infrastructure. If you like the city or don't have a safety net from some other auxiliary source such as family or church it's superior. Otherwise the US wins out in factors such as an overall more vibrant economy, more personal freedoms, not having a major landwar on its borders, etc. Also all this just applies to the actual good parts of each region. There's no point in comparing rural Alabama to Serbia cause we already know they're both shitholes.
  - sesm 3y ago
    Have you ever been to Serbia? I’ve been living there for the past year and to me it looks like a great place in terms of value for the money.
    - admissionsguy 3y ago
      If it's anything like Poland, it may enable a great material standard of life, but the parochial culture and overall nastiness (and they support Russia, so they must be nasty) will grind you down over time.

inglor_cz 3y ago

"Haha, sure, it’s real invigilation terror over here in Europe. " More like slow addition of smothering layers of bureaucracy upon bureaucracy until your breathing space is severely limited. Combined with our ghastly demographics, I think our growth is a thing of the past. In many individual EU countries including mine, something like Chat Control 2.0 would not fly and the attention of the public would be very negative; especially east of the Iron Curtain, memories of authoritarian regimes are too strong for people to trust their politicians with this kind of power. Brussels is distant enough that EU politicians can pull off such legislation without the general public being aware of it. The distance between the EC and a random European is way too big. Even bigger than the distance between the Feds and a random American in USA.

dmcq2 3y ago
The principle of subsidiarity was supposed to counter making laws affecting individuals like this would, this sort of stuff should be up to individual countries. The bureaucrats are trying to expand out of their remit.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  "The bureaucrats are trying to expand out of their remit." Which, to be frank, was totally expectable and the fact that the system wasn't prepared enough for this behavior constitutes a significant weakness.
Agingcoder 3y ago
Hungary and Poland don’t strike me as very lax governments, so it’s not obvious to me that people in Eastern Europe would actively fight that kind of legislation.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  Locally, such a proposal would immediately become subject of the local cultural war. Journalists would hop on the news and make clickbait of them incessantly. But few people, including the media, pay real attention to anything that happens in Brussels.

blibble 3y ago

> We all just want to escape this tyrannical dictatorship. some of us have managed to, it is possible > But, the European Parliament is against this legislation, and for the moment it’s not passing. it will eventually, it always does

waihtis 3y ago

It would be beneficial to understand the underlying mechanics (very untransparent centralization of power to an unelected commission) and the risks involved before smugly dismissing concerns about it.

quonn 3y ago
The commission has a member of each EU country and those members come from the elected governments. It‘s just like the government is not elected in many countries but instead the parliament is elected and that votes for a prime minister who chooses his ministers.
- jowea 3y ago
  If the EU worked like a normal parliamentary government then parliament would have the right to initiate legislation. And it would be able to nominate whoever it wished for president of the commission as long as there was a parliamentary majority. The EU has confederal aspects that don't really work in the ways normal modern democracies work.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Which kind of makes sense, as the fear isbthat the emeber nations loose their sovereignty. Hence, the elected governemnts of those memeber states agreeing on things, with the directly elected EU parliament approving theom, or not. Seems like a reasonably balance here.

riedel 3y ago

As long as the parliament is against a very specific clause chances are low that legislation passes. However, recent EU acts are therefore a mixed bag of incoherent clauses: Comission, council and parliament all push there parts through with lobbying all over the place. In the end it seems that hardly anyone understands the overall mechanics anymore. I would even argue that we sometimes even have too much democracy (well rather too many levels I guess). We would actually need better legislative techniques and a more coherent vision. The EC and their DGs are often understaffed and underqualified IMHO.