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Denverite here. I historically have been a consistent opponent of "automated enforcement" in general; it's typically run though partnerships with private compan

by Arubis 3y ago

Denverite here. I historically have been a consistent opponent of "automated enforcement" in general; it's typically run though partnerships with private companies, so the drive for profit sets up perverse incentives, like shortening yellow lights at red light cameras, placing speed cameras at valleys to nab people coasting a few mph/kph higher before heading up a hill, etc. All that remains true, but it's _less bad_ than the zero-enforcement era we've been in since Covid. Rare is the un-blown red light in front of a bicycle crossing, or an un-rolled stop sign in front of an elementary school, or an un-exceeded speed limit on residential streets. I'm not super concerned about speeding on freeways, but in the absence of police doing any traffic enforcement work in cities, these seem like the least-bad solution for now. I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

infecto 3y ago
Totally agree and I generally hate this kind of enforcement too but it does indeed feel like their is zero enforcement now over much of the US.
minerva23 3y ago
On a sample size of one, I can tell you there isn't zero enforcement. We probably ought to talk stats instead of impressions. Personally, I'll never support profitizing the criminal justice system. Too much bad happens when you create a perverse incentive for the government to call everyone criminals. Law enforcement should cost money so we have to be selective about which laws we're creating and enforcing.
IgorPartola 3y ago
Running red lights to me is way worse than doing 75 mph in a 65 zone. However, red light violations aren’t enforced where I am and indeed every single day I see someone running a very red light. As a motorcyclist this is terrifying. Here is what happens in the US: police departments derive a non-trivial amount of money from speeding tickets. Everyone speeds because our roads have poor quality control (you can have pristine pavement or potholes and bumps that will send your head through your sunroof) and speed limits haven’t been updated. Actually going the speed limit will cause huge traffic jams. However, if you are caught going over the speed limit you’ll be issued a fine of a few hundred dollars. Who gets caught? Mostly people going faster than average but generally it is a lottery. A cop on the side of the road decides that your car today looks like it deserves a ticket so he takes off after you. Oh and you can fight tickets by simply requesting a second review and get a 50% or so discount unless it was more than a routine speeding ticket. Also in the US a speeding ticket is a criminal thing. You are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Therefore you can’t just scan the license plate and issue the ticket to the owner of the vehicle. You must identify the driver and a camera can’t do that. Therefore you must take a picture of the driver and match it to a known face, a hard problem that is costly. Moreover, in lots of places if you install a speeding camera, the proceeds must be split with the local school system. That means a police department has to pay a lot of money up front with a slow ROI. Pulling random cars over is better business. The entire system is inefficient, unfair, and is full of backwards incentives. The solution is: raise the speed limits to realistic levels but also enforce them strictly. Highway limits most places should be 75, not 65. But if you go 77 or above, ticket. Moreover, we need multiple classes of driver’s licenses. Your basic license should allow you to go the speed limit and no more. But if you take an advanced test, have a car that won’t let you text while you drive, and have a clean driving history for the past N years, you can go 5 or 10 above the speed limit. You get a different license plate color to easily identify you. Again as a motorcyclist who is much more vulnerable on the road than a car driver enclosed in 3 tons of an SUV the guy doing 90 in his Civic worries me a lot less than a soccer mom with a latte and a cell phone in her hands doing 70 while seemingly unable to keep her vehicle in her lane. One of these is paying attention, the other isn’t. Speeding tickets issued by cops penalize the wrong behavior.

by Arubis 3y ago

infecto 3y ago

Totally agree and I generally hate this kind of enforcement too but it does indeed feel like their is zero enforcement now over much of the US.

minerva23 3y ago

On a sample size of one, I can tell you there isn't zero enforcement. We probably ought to talk stats instead of impressions. Personally, I'll never support profitizing the criminal justice system. Too much bad happens when you create a perverse incentive for the government to call everyone criminals. Law enforcement should cost money so we have to be selective about which laws we're creating and enforcing.

IgorPartola 3y ago

Running red lights to me is way worse than doing 75 mph in a 65 zone. However, red light violations aren’t enforced where I am and indeed every single day I see someone running a very red light. As a motorcyclist this is terrifying. Here is what happens in the US: police departments derive a non-trivial amount of money from speeding tickets. Everyone speeds because our roads have poor quality control (you can have pristine pavement or potholes and bumps that will send your head through your sunroof) and speed limits haven’t been updated. Actually going the speed limit will cause huge traffic jams. However, if you are caught going over the speed limit you’ll be issued a fine of a few hundred dollars. Who gets caught? Mostly people going faster than average but generally it is a lottery. A cop on the side of the road decides that your car today looks like it deserves a ticket so he takes off after you. Oh and you can fight tickets by simply requesting a second review and get a 50% or so discount unless it was more than a routine speeding ticket. Also in the US a speeding ticket is a criminal thing. You are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Therefore you can’t just scan the license plate and issue the ticket to the owner of the vehicle. You must identify the driver and a camera can’t do that. Therefore you must take a picture of the driver and match it to a known face, a hard problem that is costly. Moreover, in lots of places if you install a speeding camera, the proceeds must be split with the local school system. That means a police department has to pay a lot of money up front with a slow ROI. Pulling random cars over is better business. The entire system is inefficient, unfair, and is full of backwards incentives. The solution is: raise the speed limits to realistic levels but also enforce them strictly. Highway limits most places should be 75, not 65. But if you go 77 or above, ticket. Moreover, we need multiple classes of driver’s licenses. Your basic license should allow you to go the speed limit and no more. But if you take an advanced test, have a car that won’t let you text while you drive, and have a clean driving history for the past N years, you can go 5 or 10 above the speed limit. You get a different license plate color to easily identify you. Again as a motorcyclist who is much more vulnerable on the road than a car driver enclosed in 3 tons of an SUV the guy doing 90 in his Civic worries me a lot less than a soccer mom with a latte and a cell phone in her hands doing 70 while seemingly unable to keep her vehicle in her lane. One of these is paying attention, the other isn’t. Speeding tickets issued by cops penalize the wrong behavior.