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It's still based on Android though - so isn't it building on sand ? Isn't it better to focus our efforts on projects unrelated to Android, especially since som

It's still based on Android though - so isn't it building on sand ? Isn't it better to focus our efforts on projects unrelated to Android, especially since some viable ones have appeared recently : Librem 5 and especially PinePhone.

jacooper 3y ago
No it isn't, as unlike the others, grapheneOS is actually usable and dailyable.
- fsflover 3y ago
  I doubt grapheneOS requires much less effort to daily drive than others. Sent from my Librem 5.
  - eks391 3y ago
    There's some hiccups when you first set GrapheneOS up, but after that it is as smooth as, and blends in with, any other Android device. I've never used Librem or PinePhone to comment on them
  - ryukafalz 3y ago
    As an owner of both a Librem 5 and a Pixel 6a running GrapheneOS I can confirm that the latter has been much more reliable and has taken substantially less work to get to the point where I can daily drive it. The Librem 5 is not there yet, and while I would like it if it were I'm not currently very optimistic about that.
  - bkallus 3y ago
    In the past year, I have used a pinephone+keyboard with Arch, a oneplus 6t with postmarketOS, and a pixel 7a with GrapheneOS. In my opinion, Graphene is significantly easier to daily drive because the applications are designed for a phone's form factor.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      Could you share which Pinephone apps you needed that aren't designed for a phone's form factor?
      - bkallus 3y ago
        The biggest one is the Firefox ESR build from the pmOS repos with the custom userChrome.css that tries to fit everything onto the Pinephone's screen. I pretty consistently encountered pop-up prompts (for example, in the built-in password manager) that ran off the edge of the screen in both portrait and landscape. Zooming out sometimes helped, but then the text was unreadable and the buttons too small to press. There was also no forward button in either the overflow menu or the nav bar. The Phosh settings app had similar problems.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Banks in many countries require an Android phone for online banking. Even if they offer an online-banking website that you can access with any browser, you may still need the Android app for 2FA. This is one of a number of reasons why the PinePhone or Librem is unfortunately not a daily driver. Also, things like paying for parking or interacting with public services are moving to Android apps in some places.
- Kwpolska 3y ago
  Don't most banking apps reject non-GooglePlay/unofficial-image/rooted phones?
  - Arnt 3y ago
    Yes, and the reasons are instructive. When you get to the lowest level, technically, the banking apps want to store files on the phone that the user can't access. This means that something like lineageos can run banking apps, if the phone tells the banking app what the app wants to hear. It's fiddly but can be done, and in fact it is what I do on my private phone. It also means that a platform that fundamentally gives users the right to read all the files on the phone (ie. to make a complete backup) will not be supported by banking apps, because such a platform will not let the banks do what they think they need to do. I think this implies that such platforms can't grow beyond a niche within a niche.
    - user_7832 3y ago
      While I can understand Google and the banking apps' actions, it doesn't make much sense given how PCs having root is hardly every a concern for a bank. If you can do something bad with banking on a rooted device, it's probably doable on a computer too.
      - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
        Oh, banks are definitely concerned about PCs having root. There are even some banks that have removed their online banking websites entirely (except, perhaps, for corporate clients) and require customers to do everything through the Android app instead.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
npteljes 3y ago
It's the regulation that should focus on creating the foundations of alternative systems, not the phone manufacturers. If a bank doesn't have a website, or a govt app doesn't have a website equivalent, then Librem & co is already out of the picture, from the everyday usability standpoint. To provide the citizens freedoms, service providers need to be forced to use open standards, like HTTP & HTML, to serve an standard interface that has all the necessary functionality. No matter how many grassroots initiatives we have, if this is not provided, they are automatically all out of the race. So really, if anything, I'd like people to focus on regulation.

jacooper 3y ago

No it isn't, as unlike the others, grapheneOS is actually usable and dailyable.

fsflover 3y ago
I doubt grapheneOS requires much less effort to daily drive than others. Sent from my Librem 5.
- eks391 3y ago
  There's some hiccups when you first set GrapheneOS up, but after that it is as smooth as, and blends in with, any other Android device. I've never used Librem or PinePhone to comment on them
- ryukafalz 3y ago
  As an owner of both a Librem 5 and a Pixel 6a running GrapheneOS I can confirm that the latter has been much more reliable and has taken substantially less work to get to the point where I can daily drive it. The Librem 5 is not there yet, and while I would like it if it were I'm not currently very optimistic about that.
- bkallus 3y ago
  In the past year, I have used a pinephone+keyboard with Arch, a oneplus 6t with postmarketOS, and a pixel 7a with GrapheneOS. In my opinion, Graphene is significantly easier to daily drive because the applications are designed for a phone's form factor.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Could you share which Pinephone apps you needed that aren't designed for a phone's form factor?
    - bkallus 3y ago
      The biggest one is the Firefox ESR build from the pmOS repos with the custom userChrome.css that tries to fit everything onto the Pinephone's screen. I pretty consistently encountered pop-up prompts (for example, in the built-in password manager) that ran off the edge of the screen in both portrait and landscape. Zooming out sometimes helped, but then the text was unreadable and the buttons too small to press. There was also no forward button in either the overflow menu or the nav bar. The Phosh settings app had similar problems.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

Banks in many countries require an Android phone for online banking. Even if they offer an online-banking website that you can access with any browser, you may still need the Android app for 2FA. This is one of a number of reasons why the PinePhone or Librem is unfortunately not a daily driver. Also, things like paying for parking or interacting with public services are moving to Android apps in some places.

Kwpolska 3y ago
Don't most banking apps reject non-GooglePlay/unofficial-image/rooted phones?
- Arnt 3y ago
  Yes, and the reasons are instructive. When you get to the lowest level, technically, the banking apps want to store files on the phone that the user can't access. This means that something like lineageos can run banking apps, if the phone tells the banking app what the app wants to hear. It's fiddly but can be done, and in fact it is what I do on my private phone. It also means that a platform that fundamentally gives users the right to read all the files on the phone (ie. to make a complete backup) will not be supported by banking apps, because such a platform will not let the banks do what they think they need to do. I think this implies that such platforms can't grow beyond a niche within a niche.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    While I can understand Google and the banking apps' actions, it doesn't make much sense given how PCs having root is hardly every a concern for a bank. If you can do something bad with banking on a rooted device, it's probably doable on a computer too.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      Oh, banks are definitely concerned about PCs having root. There are even some banks that have removed their online banking websites entirely (except, perhaps, for corporate clients) and require customers to do everything through the Android app instead.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

npteljes 3y ago

It's the regulation that should focus on creating the foundations of alternative systems, not the phone manufacturers. If a bank doesn't have a website, or a govt app doesn't have a website equivalent, then Librem & co is already out of the picture, from the everyday usability standpoint. To provide the citizens freedoms, service providers need to be forced to use open standards, like HTTP & HTML, to serve an standard interface that has all the necessary functionality. No matter how many grassroots initiatives we have, if this is not provided, they are automatically all out of the race. So really, if anything, I'd like people to focus on regulation.