11 ms·

The science of road ecology, or how roadways affect plants and animal life

82 points by akolbe 3y ago

xyzelement 3y ago
I appreciate novel and thought provoking critiques like this, and also can keep in mind that roads are amazing and make the world better in a million ways. There’s a big difference between internalizing something like this as a non obvious cost of something positive - and positive on the net despite the cost - vs reading this and deciding that roads should be removed or something like that.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Balanced discussions don't get at much engagement.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > Balanced discussions don't get at much engagement. Agreed. Controversy sells, which is a shorter and more accurate way of saying "If it bleeds, it leads" I've been looking at how much a quality PR firm costs (nothing less than $10k/m, all the way up to $100k/m for more exposure). I've half a mind to cultivate an incredibly controversial position before launching my startup's product. The media coverage of "lelanthran, founder and CEO or $COMPANY, producing $PRODUCT, had this to say about the round-earth conspiracy!" is bound to be worth a few $100k at least in publicity, at least.
- cowsandmilk 3y ago
  As the article states, the book gives positive examples where roads are providing critical habitat to some species. Your comment assumes an imbalance to the book which may not be there.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    I think my point is that evaluating roads primarily on their impact on species - even the positive impacts you mention - isn’t the main thing we should be doing
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      If roads don't serve a sustainable future then what is their purpose? Is destroying the habitat of our children worth it to make ourselves a little more comfortable? We can't just print more habitat, so I don't see the point of giving other factors more weight.
      - xyzelement 3y ago
        I would argue that roads obviously make our lives more sustainable in ways that actually matter. An obvious example is that humanity would not be able to sustain its current size and quality of life without roads.
        AlecSchueler 3y ago
        But our current lifestyle and population is unsustainable.
        xyzelement 3y ago
        That’s an oft repeated thing, but far from accepted as rigorous. Malthusian anxiety is always a thing for some percentage of population and they will find something to worry about.
        paulryanrogers 3y ago
        Malthus being wrong about the exact tipping point and timing doesn't mean that the limits of fundamental physics somehow don't exist. Innovations are unpredictable and likely easier when discovering the lower hanging fruit. So if we are increasingly unlikely to invent our way out of mounting problems they are likely to get worse. Based on current pollution and resource consumption alone we already know our time is running out. At best we've got a century or two before there is massive upheaval. And the resulting world is very likely to be a hellscape of microplastics, ubiquitius forever chemicals, depleted soils, and unexploded munitions. Then again, it's far easier to stick ones head in the sand and carry on like nothing is wrong. Yet don't worry about such folks, they'll continue on until we all suffer or they're constrained.
- Podgajski 3y ago
  [dead]
dmwilcox 3y ago
Love it. Except the whole driverless cars fantasy dream though which I would doubt they would help in any fashion. Unfortunately if we care about our ecosystems, communities divided by roads, and the constant noise and air pollution I think we only have harder solutions to negotiate: Speed limits, suburbs, and supporting useful public transit and bicycle infrastructure (to reduce road speed and the need to build road capacity linearly with rising incomes as the world develops)
- r2b2 3y ago
  Autonomous electric cars make tunnels easier, which have smaller negative impact on the environment.
- akolbe 3y ago
  One way driverless cars might help is that they reduce the amount of land that has to be given over to carparks, especially in the US. Where towns in Europe would build a multi-story carpark to serve a shopping mall, municipalities in North America may simply cover acres upon acres of land around a mall with asphalt (take the Edmonton Mall in Alberta, Canada, or the Fairlane Town Center in Dearborn, MI), in the process creating an almost lifeless zone. You wouldn't need that much space for parked cars if everyone arrived in a driverless Uber. (Apparently, US parking lots cover an area of around 25,000 square miles, about twice the size of Switzerland:) https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/27/cities-eliminating-car-parks-parking https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/27/cities-elimin...
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    > Where towns in Europe would build a multi-story carpark to serve a shopping mall, municipalities in North America may simply cover acres upon acres of land Couldn't you solve this issue without self driving cars by just building multi-story carparks like Europe? Or using the same space to build shopping streets with multiple stores and some onstreet parking? That way it's a bit more social and scenic as well.
    - 3y ago
ChatGTP 3y ago
“Goldfarb writes, and our collective future will bring many more cars and the need for even more roads.“ Is this true ? I can already see things like working from home, e bikes and drone delivery significantly reducing the need for roads. In Japan, for example, roads are abandoned due to lack of use. A trend that seems to be happening in other countries such as China and Korea. Aside from this, I love this article and I feel it’s really important to consider his arguments.
- puchatek 3y ago
  Depends on the country and the ruling powers. In Germany the current minister of transportation is in favor of building more roads.
  - manxman 3y ago
    More unrestricted autobahns I hope! ;)
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      He is, but majority leans more to restrict it all.
- manxman 3y ago
  > In Japan, for example, roads are abandoned due to lack of use. A trend that seems to be happening in other countries such as China and Korea. From what I saw on my recent travels in Japan, I'd suggest it was more a case of government vanity projects, local government corruption/desire to spend budgets and other mismanagement that resulted in over-engineered roads being put in places where there was clearly a very low population density. The same was true of lovely new concrete/granite boardwalks and cycle paths on some of the remote islands in Okinawa Prefecture that were overgrown with vegetation and were impenetrable by bicycle (and almost impassible on foot). Similarly new roads are being built on some of those islands given that there is noticeable traffic congestion.
  - 3y ago
JackMorgan 3y ago
Here in the USA we're facing an infrastructure crisis. A lot of the roads, sewers, and electric were overbuilt. The expected maintenance is often not included in municipal budgets. Almost all cities and towns use cash basis accounting instead of accrual accounting, which means they all are facing unanticipated maintenance costs. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason...
- PopAlongKid 3y ago
  That article is not very applicable to "here in the USA". Isn't Lafayette, LA the largest muncipality in its vicinity? I live in a 60,000 population suburb in a top ten metro area, all the adjacent towns are similar poplulation, demography, and economic status. In other words more than half a million population in my county. In my neighborhood alone, which was developed 70 years ago, the roads are maintained, our sewers are replaced, our electric still works (and how to you "overbuild" electric in the first place?) Yes, we have periodic tax increases. Strongtown argument that cities are unsustainable because the citizens don't want to pay for maintenance aren't very convincing.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
One thing I saw that really surprised me: In the desert, there are more flowers immediately beside the road. Water is the critical factor for plant life there. When it rains, the water that falls on the road flows off to the edge, so the plants there have more water.
WillAdams 3y ago
Depressing article noting how prevailing roads are in the U.S.: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42104894 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42104894
porompompero 3y ago
We will never look enought ar what asphalt did to human health, too.

82 points by akolbe 3y ago

I appreciate novel and thought provoking critiques like this, and also can keep in mind that roads are amazing and make the world better in a million ways. There’s a big difference between internalizing something like this as a non obvious cost of something positive - and positive on the net despite the cost - vs reading this and deciding that roads should be removed or something like that.

HPsquared 3y ago
Balanced discussions don't get at much engagement.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > Balanced discussions don't get at much engagement. Agreed. Controversy sells, which is a shorter and more accurate way of saying "If it bleeds, it leads" I've been looking at how much a quality PR firm costs (nothing less than $10k/m, all the way up to $100k/m for more exposure). I've half a mind to cultivate an incredibly controversial position before launching my startup's product. The media coverage of "lelanthran, founder and CEO or $COMPANY, producing $PRODUCT, had this to say about the round-earth conspiracy!" is bound to be worth a few $100k at least in publicity, at least.
cowsandmilk 3y ago
As the article states, the book gives positive examples where roads are providing critical habitat to some species. Your comment assumes an imbalance to the book which may not be there.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  I think my point is that evaluating roads primarily on their impact on species - even the positive impacts you mention - isn’t the main thing we should be doing
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    If roads don't serve a sustainable future then what is their purpose? Is destroying the habitat of our children worth it to make ourselves a little more comfortable? We can't just print more habitat, so I don't see the point of giving other factors more weight.
    - xyzelement 3y ago
      I would argue that roads obviously make our lives more sustainable in ways that actually matter. An obvious example is that humanity would not be able to sustain its current size and quality of life without roads.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        But our current lifestyle and population is unsustainable.
        xyzelement 3y ago
        That’s an oft repeated thing, but far from accepted as rigorous. Malthusian anxiety is always a thing for some percentage of population and they will find something to worry about.
        paulryanrogers 3y ago
        Malthus being wrong about the exact tipping point and timing doesn't mean that the limits of fundamental physics somehow don't exist. Innovations are unpredictable and likely easier when discovering the lower hanging fruit. So if we are increasingly unlikely to invent our way out of mounting problems they are likely to get worse. Based on current pollution and resource consumption alone we already know our time is running out. At best we've got a century or two before there is massive upheaval. And the resulting world is very likely to be a hellscape of microplastics, ubiquitius forever chemicals, depleted soils, and unexploded munitions. Then again, it's far easier to stick ones head in the sand and carry on like nothing is wrong. Yet don't worry about such folks, they'll continue on until we all suffer or they're constrained.
Podgajski 3y ago
[dead]

dmwilcox 3y ago

Love it. Except the whole driverless cars fantasy dream though which I would doubt they would help in any fashion. Unfortunately if we care about our ecosystems, communities divided by roads, and the constant noise and air pollution I think we only have harder solutions to negotiate: Speed limits, suburbs, and supporting useful public transit and bicycle infrastructure (to reduce road speed and the need to build road capacity linearly with rising incomes as the world develops)

r2b2 3y ago
Autonomous electric cars make tunnels easier, which have smaller negative impact on the environment.
akolbe 3y ago
One way driverless cars might help is that they reduce the amount of land that has to be given over to carparks, especially in the US. Where towns in Europe would build a multi-story carpark to serve a shopping mall, municipalities in North America may simply cover acres upon acres of land around a mall with asphalt (take the Edmonton Mall in Alberta, Canada, or the Fairlane Town Center in Dearborn, MI), in the process creating an almost lifeless zone. You wouldn't need that much space for parked cars if everyone arrived in a driverless Uber. (Apparently, US parking lots cover an area of around 25,000 square miles, about twice the size of Switzerland:) https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/27/cities-eliminating-car-parks-parking https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/27/cities-elimin...
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  > Where towns in Europe would build a multi-story carpark to serve a shopping mall, municipalities in North America may simply cover acres upon acres of land Couldn't you solve this issue without self driving cars by just building multi-story carparks like Europe? Or using the same space to build shopping streets with multiple stores and some onstreet parking? That way it's a bit more social and scenic as well.
  - 3y ago

ChatGTP 3y ago

“Goldfarb writes, and our collective future will bring many more cars and the need for even more roads.“ Is this true ? I can already see things like working from home, e bikes and drone delivery significantly reducing the need for roads. In Japan, for example, roads are abandoned due to lack of use. A trend that seems to be happening in other countries such as China and Korea. Aside from this, I love this article and I feel it’s really important to consider his arguments.

puchatek 3y ago
Depends on the country and the ruling powers. In Germany the current minister of transportation is in favor of building more roads.
- manxman 3y ago
  More unrestricted autobahns I hope! ;)
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    He is, but majority leans more to restrict it all.
manxman 3y ago
> In Japan, for example, roads are abandoned due to lack of use. A trend that seems to be happening in other countries such as China and Korea. From what I saw on my recent travels in Japan, I'd suggest it was more a case of government vanity projects, local government corruption/desire to spend budgets and other mismanagement that resulted in over-engineered roads being put in places where there was clearly a very low population density. The same was true of lovely new concrete/granite boardwalks and cycle paths on some of the remote islands in Okinawa Prefecture that were overgrown with vegetation and were impenetrable by bicycle (and almost impassible on foot). Similarly new roads are being built on some of those islands given that there is noticeable traffic congestion.
- 3y ago

JackMorgan 3y ago

Here in the USA we're facing an infrastructure crisis. A lot of the roads, sewers, and electric were overbuilt. The expected maintenance is often not included in municipal budgets. Almost all cities and towns use cash basis accounting instead of accrual accounting, which means they all are facing unanticipated maintenance costs. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason...

PopAlongKid 3y ago
That article is not very applicable to "here in the USA". Isn't Lafayette, LA the largest muncipality in its vicinity? I live in a 60,000 population suburb in a top ten metro area, all the adjacent towns are similar poplulation, demography, and economic status. In other words more than half a million population in my county. In my neighborhood alone, which was developed 70 years ago, the roads are maintained, our sewers are replaced, our electric still works (and how to you "overbuild" electric in the first place?) Yes, we have periodic tax increases. Strongtown argument that cities are unsustainable because the citizens don't want to pay for maintenance aren't very convincing.

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

One thing I saw that really surprised me: In the desert, there are more flowers immediately beside the road. Water is the critical factor for plant life there. When it rains, the water that falls on the road flows off to the edge, so the plants there have more water.

WillAdams 3y ago

Depressing article noting how prevailing roads are in the U.S.: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42104894 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42104894

porompompero 3y ago

We will never look enought ar what asphalt did to human health, too.