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I love this point. One of the things that has been on my mind of late is the idea of how much of what humans call “correct” or “right” is actually socially gen

I love this point. One of the things that has been on my mind of late is the idea of how much of what humans call “correct” or “right” is actually socially generated pressures to conform. Berns and Asch’s various research on social conformity around what we normally would consider objectively correct answers seems to have some potential applications worth testing in AI land. AIs may be much more performant with AI “social inputs” (and of course all the long term memory improvements currently lacking required to use it as a tool). I am very much excited about the network AI and pipeline work (small teams!) currently coming into vogue. Feels like the “right direction” to make incredible progress. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/am-i-right/201404/the-astonishing-power-social-pressure https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/am-i-right/201404/th... Otherwise agree with your points exactly. Good comment.

pdonis 3y ago
> One of the things that has been on my mind of late is the idea of how much of what humans call “correct” or “right” is actually socially generated pressures to conform And the only reason that is even a thing is that we humans have a concept of actually being right, which we can distinguish from "responding to socially generated pressures to conform".
- jshen 3y ago
  I'm not sure I'd frame it that way. We seem to make decisions with our subconscious brains and our "rational" brains primarily rationalize a justification for that decision. Our brains are less concerned with being right than they are with justifying our subconscious behavior and fitting in with our tribe. Another example, our brains care far more about achieving and maintaining status than about being right. We seem barely capable of objective thought at best.
  - pdonis 3y ago
    > We seem to make decisions with our subconscious brains and our "rational" brains primarily rationalize a justification for that decision. There is research that is claimed to show this, but it doesn't. All it actually shows is that the process of making a decision takes time, and involves many different parts of the brain. There is no separate "rationalization" that comes after the decision is made. It's all part of a single process that can't be decomposed into such separate parts. In any case, all this is irrelevant to what I said. I said we humans have the concept of "actually being right". We don't always live up to that concept, but even making that observation, as you have, shows that we have the concept. If we didn't, we could not even make statements like this one of yours: "our brains care far more about achieving and maintaining status than about being right." > We seem barely capable of objective thought at best. I think you have a sadly impoverished view of human thought.
    - jshen 3y ago
      My view is based on the science. Regarding the research that supports my claim, studies have been done to isolate the different parts of the brain where they tell one part to do something like get water, then they ask the other part of the brain why they got the water and it makes up a reason because it's not aware of what happened in the other part. This is eerily similar to LLMs hallucinating.
- happytiger 3y ago
  It’s certainly true that both genes and our culture, rather than just one or the other, provide an explanation. But it’s not one or the other, but one and the other. This genetic and cultural evolution working together has shaped our brains to care for others, react to those who try to harm us, and to create moral rules that help us to live together successfully. I’m not sure why responding to socialization pressures to conform to certain behaviors would preclude intrinsic or genetic morality. We know that babies exhibit intrinsic morality from a very young age, that moral behavior exists in non-human species, and that we have parts of the brain just to deal with moral judgement (though we are really in the infancy of understanding and mapping this from what I’ve read). That’s not what I meant to imply or what research supports.

pdonis 3y ago

> One of the things that has been on my mind of late is the idea of how much of what humans call “correct” or “right” is actually socially generated pressures to conform And the only reason that is even a thing is that we humans have a concept of actually being right, which we can distinguish from "responding to socially generated pressures to conform".

jshen 3y ago
I'm not sure I'd frame it that way. We seem to make decisions with our subconscious brains and our "rational" brains primarily rationalize a justification for that decision. Our brains are less concerned with being right than they are with justifying our subconscious behavior and fitting in with our tribe. Another example, our brains care far more about achieving and maintaining status than about being right. We seem barely capable of objective thought at best.
- pdonis 3y ago
  > We seem to make decisions with our subconscious brains and our "rational" brains primarily rationalize a justification for that decision. There is research that is claimed to show this, but it doesn't. All it actually shows is that the process of making a decision takes time, and involves many different parts of the brain. There is no separate "rationalization" that comes after the decision is made. It's all part of a single process that can't be decomposed into such separate parts. In any case, all this is irrelevant to what I said. I said we humans have the concept of "actually being right". We don't always live up to that concept, but even making that observation, as you have, shows that we have the concept. If we didn't, we could not even make statements like this one of yours: "our brains care far more about achieving and maintaining status than about being right." > We seem barely capable of objective thought at best. I think you have a sadly impoverished view of human thought.
  - jshen 3y ago
    My view is based on the science. Regarding the research that supports my claim, studies have been done to isolate the different parts of the brain where they tell one part to do something like get water, then they ask the other part of the brain why they got the water and it makes up a reason because it's not aware of what happened in the other part. This is eerily similar to LLMs hallucinating.
happytiger 3y ago
It’s certainly true that both genes and our culture, rather than just one or the other, provide an explanation. But it’s not one or the other, but one and the other. This genetic and cultural evolution working together has shaped our brains to care for others, react to those who try to harm us, and to create moral rules that help us to live together successfully. I’m not sure why responding to socialization pressures to conform to certain behaviors would preclude intrinsic or genetic morality. We know that babies exhibit intrinsic morality from a very young age, that moral behavior exists in non-human species, and that we have parts of the brain just to deal with moral judgement (though we are really in the infancy of understanding and mapping this from what I’ve read). That’s not what I meant to imply or what research supports.