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> It's not unreasonable to trace the Sunday's horrors in Israel to that event in 1953. It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution

> It's not unreasonable to trace the Sunday's horrors in Israel to that event in 1953. It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the fighting that happened amongst the middle eastern states, the new Bolshevik government, and the Triple Entente, and of course the Balfour Decleration. > But there was a time that the CIA was responsible for an awful lot of heinous things, and the ousting of Mossadegh is just one. There was a time? Because of course they promised 100% that they would totally not do something like that again ever ever, and so of course they aren't doing anything like that anymore.....

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
Don’t forget the breakup of the Ottoman Empire around the same time.
rayiner 3y ago
> It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the fighting that happened amongst the middle eastern states, the new Bolshevik government, and the Triple Entente, and of course the Balfour Decleration I’m pretty sure it goes back much, much, further than that.
- saulpw 3y ago
  Nope, it doesn't really. I did some research[0] to get to the bottom of it, and it goes back to the Zionism of the late 19th century. Before that, the Jewish population in the Palestine region was a 5% minority (and Christians a 10% minority) and the rest were Arab Muslims, and they mostly got along. Anti-semitism has been awful throughout history, of course, particularly in Eastern Europe, which is a big part of what fueled the Zionists to resettle in Palestine, but locally the tensions started then, and increased significantly when Britain stepped in after WWI, and then when the UN created Israel in 1948, and so on. [0] https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029f3 https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029... Edit: why the downvotes with no explanation? I thought the same thing as the parent, and did some research, to discover the real history, that the Israel-Palestine tensions actually only go back to the late 1800s. I did some independent verification, but would appreciate being corrected if this is wrong.
  - mptest 3y ago
    >why downvotes with no explanation I'd wager people aren't likely to be as methodical in their analysis of comments' verity on this topic as they might be normally. I thought US politics was polarizing, israel palestine legit seems to drive people to even further extremes
    - xenophonf 3y ago
      I downvoted out of principle as their only source is a procedural generator for natural language text, as opposed to peer-reviewed historiography.
      - mptest 3y ago
        That's fair, I shouldn't have made a comment asserting the minds' of the downvoters. I wonder, if the chat is wholly correct factually, what bearing that might have on your opinion of the source? What if in the generative response it cited the historical sources? I am not trying to make any statements on the truth of either comment, I am woefully uneducated when it comes to Israel/palestine. Just interested in the value of chat gpt convo as a source in the abstract. It feels just somewhat like when I was told not to use wikipedia in my early school days.
        tsimionescu 3y ago
        How would you know if the chat is "wholly correct factually", unless you look at other spurces? It is not uncommon for even it's citations to simply not exist. Wikipedia sometimes has similar problems, but it has generally gotten pretty good over the years on many topics. I still wouldn't cite Wikipedia on something so politically charged as the Israel-Palestine conflict.
        mptest 3y ago
        Definitely should've said "use as a source" not "cite". Like you note, wikipedia, and chatgpt for that matter are great not for "i need 100% confidence this is correct" queries but "i want to know where to dig deeper" queries. I wouldn't cite wikipedia itself, but I also wouldn't be shied away from a primary source found from wikipedia. And that to me makes wikipedia as useful if not more useful than the primary source itself, because if I can't find the primary source what good is it? Tree falling in the forrest and all that.
Gibbon1 3y ago
What it sees to me is the Ottomans played tribal groups in their empire off against each other. And suppressed the any and all entities that could provide balance against their power. Compare with Europe which never was unified and where tribal distinctions were slowly replaced with national and religious ones. The Ottoman Empire fell apart 100 years ago. After which the French and the British tried to colonize it and when that didn't work they just drew lines on a map and installed a tribal chief from a weaker tribe as king. Which is to say this mess has a deep history that has it's roots in the Muslim conquests, the Mongol conquests, and the Ottoman Conquests. Followed by the dissolution of the Ottoman empire and ham handed foreign meddling since.
rdtsc 3y ago
> There was a time? Because of course they promised 100% that they would totally not do something like that again ever ever, and so of course they aren't doing anything like that anymore. Indeed. They've finally found their moral compass and we should forgive them /s > In it, CIA spokesman and podcast host Walter Trosin cites the claims of agency historians that the majority of the CIA’s clandestine activities in its history “bolstered” popularly elected governments. This was really just one exception, normally they are the "good" actors /s Does anyone believe that? After that they were involved in MKUltra, enhanced interrogation torture, toppling governments in South America and other places. Why bother pretending instead of staying quiet.
- thewileyone 3y ago
  > In it, CIA spokesman and podcast host Walter Trosin cites the claims of agency historians that the majority of the CIA’s clandestine activities in its history “bolstered” popularly elected governments. Still means the CIA interfered in democratic elections in sovereign nations.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago

Don’t forget the breakup of the Ottoman Empire around the same time.

rayiner 3y ago

> It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the fighting that happened amongst the middle eastern states, the new Bolshevik government, and the Triple Entente, and of course the Balfour Decleration I’m pretty sure it goes back much, much, further than that.

saulpw 3y ago
Nope, it doesn't really. I did some research[0] to get to the bottom of it, and it goes back to the Zionism of the late 19th century. Before that, the Jewish population in the Palestine region was a 5% minority (and Christians a 10% minority) and the rest were Arab Muslims, and they mostly got along. Anti-semitism has been awful throughout history, of course, particularly in Eastern Europe, which is a big part of what fueled the Zionists to resettle in Palestine, but locally the tensions started then, and increased significantly when Britain stepped in after WWI, and then when the UN created Israel in 1948, and so on. [0] https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029f3 https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029... Edit: why the downvotes with no explanation? I thought the same thing as the parent, and did some research, to discover the real history, that the Israel-Palestine tensions actually only go back to the late 1800s. I did some independent verification, but would appreciate being corrected if this is wrong.
- mptest 3y ago
  >why downvotes with no explanation I'd wager people aren't likely to be as methodical in their analysis of comments' verity on this topic as they might be normally. I thought US politics was polarizing, israel palestine legit seems to drive people to even further extremes
  - xenophonf 3y ago
    I downvoted out of principle as their only source is a procedural generator for natural language text, as opposed to peer-reviewed historiography.
    - mptest 3y ago
      That's fair, I shouldn't have made a comment asserting the minds' of the downvoters. I wonder, if the chat is wholly correct factually, what bearing that might have on your opinion of the source? What if in the generative response it cited the historical sources? I am not trying to make any statements on the truth of either comment, I am woefully uneducated when it comes to Israel/palestine. Just interested in the value of chat gpt convo as a source in the abstract. It feels just somewhat like when I was told not to use wikipedia in my early school days.
      - tsimionescu 3y ago
        How would you know if the chat is "wholly correct factually", unless you look at other spurces? It is not uncommon for even it's citations to simply not exist. Wikipedia sometimes has similar problems, but it has generally gotten pretty good over the years on many topics. I still wouldn't cite Wikipedia on something so politically charged as the Israel-Palestine conflict.
        mptest 3y ago
        Definitely should've said "use as a source" not "cite". Like you note, wikipedia, and chatgpt for that matter are great not for "i need 100% confidence this is correct" queries but "i want to know where to dig deeper" queries. I wouldn't cite wikipedia itself, but I also wouldn't be shied away from a primary source found from wikipedia. And that to me makes wikipedia as useful if not more useful than the primary source itself, because if I can't find the primary source what good is it? Tree falling in the forrest and all that.

Gibbon1 3y ago

What it sees to me is the Ottomans played tribal groups in their empire off against each other. And suppressed the any and all entities that could provide balance against their power. Compare with Europe which never was unified and where tribal distinctions were slowly replaced with national and religious ones. The Ottoman Empire fell apart 100 years ago. After which the French and the British tried to colonize it and when that didn't work they just drew lines on a map and installed a tribal chief from a weaker tribe as king. Which is to say this mess has a deep history that has it's roots in the Muslim conquests, the Mongol conquests, and the Ottoman Conquests. Followed by the dissolution of the Ottoman empire and ham handed foreign meddling since.

rdtsc 3y ago

> There was a time? Because of course they promised 100% that they would totally not do something like that again ever ever, and so of course they aren't doing anything like that anymore. Indeed. They've finally found their moral compass and we should forgive them /s > In it, CIA spokesman and podcast host Walter Trosin cites the claims of agency historians that the majority of the CIA’s clandestine activities in its history “bolstered” popularly elected governments. This was really just one exception, normally they are the "good" actors /s Does anyone believe that? After that they were involved in MKUltra, enhanced interrogation torture, toppling governments in South America and other places. Why bother pretending instead of staying quiet.

thewileyone 3y ago
> In it, CIA spokesman and podcast host Walter Trosin cites the claims of agency historians that the majority of the CIA’s clandestine activities in its history “bolstered” popularly elected governments. Still means the CIA interfered in democratic elections in sovereign nations.