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Chat Control 2.0: EU set to approve end of private messaging, secure encryption

131 points by ssklash 3y ago

jiggawatts 3y ago
This is 90% mass surveillance for general law enforcement, 9% state spying, and 1% about stopping child sex abuse. So of course, because 99% of the dragnet is unpalatable to the voters it is being forced onto, the focus is on CSAM. None of it is effective anyway, which is an open secret. Israel for example has one of the most extensive intelligence gathering programs in their region and they missed a huge military buildup on their doorstep. This technology is never used to help or protect people. Nobody forces through unpopular laws that cost billions of dollars to implement and utilise out of the goodness of their heart. Laws like this exist to keep tabs on the poor so that they don’t have the means to organise against the rich and powerful. Look at how Cambridge Analytica used dragnet data collection to help unpopular politicians win elections. This is what it’s about: power. The power to listen in. The power to keep tabs on you. The power to destroy the reputation of upstart competitors to your power.
- 0xy 3y ago
  1% is an extremely generous claim. With Australia's spying program 'metadata retention' for example, the bill was sold as being for terrorism and CSAM and is now routinely used by local governments to hunt down people littering. Yup. Slippery slope from terrorism & CSAM all the way down to littering. Not to mention it has been routinely abused by police and spies to stalk girlfriends and other such egregious violations. The EU is far more incompetent so expect this on a far broader scale.
  - raybb 3y ago
    Do you have a source for the littering bit?
    - snypher 3y ago
      https://www.zdnet.com/article/aussie-council-body-argues-access-to-metadata-would-help-thwart-illegal-activity/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/aussie-council-body-argues-acc...
- sneak 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - para_parolu 3y ago
    Do you have evidences to support such belief about USA?
    - happymellon 3y ago
      Do you mean something like room 641A?
AlchemistCamp 3y ago
Hopefully WhatsApp, Signal and other chat providers cut off the EU rather than abandon end-to-end encryption.
- JambalayaJim 3y ago
  They will offer a backdoor
  - miohtama 3y ago
    WhatsApp yes, Signal and Telegram no. Signal and Telegram do not have cash revenues from the EU, so they can be non-compliant. Worse is if Apple and Android integrate these features directly to the operating system.
    - sneak 3y ago
      Telegram isn’t e2ee. (Yes, it has an e2ee feature which you can turn on per chat if you remember, but nobody does this.)
      - codedokode 3y ago
        And why nobody does this? Maybe because they simply don't mind against reading their correspondence? Or because they do not want to look like a criminal trying to hide something?
        rho138 3y ago
        > I have nothing to hide so please read all my comms big daddy government Dude everyone minds that their _private_ correspondence is being read by prying eyes. Just because you’re technically inclined to do so [enable e2ee per chat] doesn’t mean that the lowest common denominator human is capable or willing to do so. Which is why secure by default - without state compromise a la Telegram & WhatsApp - is so important.
      - theragra 3y ago
Reubend 3y ago
We need better laws to enshrine the right to privacy. Otherwise, we'll keep getting proposals like this until eventually one gets approved.
- runningaway 3y ago
  The constitution of Finland states "The secrecy of correspondence, telephony and other confidential communications is inviolable". It can't be any clearer than that. I don't understand why, but this doesn't seem to matter.
  - qris 3y ago
    The primacy of European Union law is a legal principle establishing precedence of European Union law over conflicting national laws of EU member states. The principle was derived from an interpretation of the European Court of Justice, which ruled that European law has priority over any contravening national law, including the constitution of a member state itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law
miohtama 3y ago
Earlier https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the-eus-fight-over-scanning-for-child-sex-content/ https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the... It’s American scan software company and corrupted Swedish politicians lobbying this
jessenaser 3y ago
On device client side scanning requires a DRM for devices. This means you could not install Linux on computers, you must only install what the hardware lets you install, from some cryptographic chip. Besides encryption, besides all else. This would lead to a world where whatever levels of control could be put on devices, they will. - Iran phones won't let you install free communications apps. - Chinese phones won't let you install VPNs. - Indian phones will put a backdoor into your encryption PGP, so it can sign messages acting on your behalf, or DocuSign behalf. This isn't talking about Apple phones that do not let you install software you want. This is saying there will be a MARKET restriction in the European Union, such that a free product IS NOT POSSIBLE. --- However there are truths: 1. Once hardware is published it cannot be changed on the fly. 2. Peer to peer protocols cannot be stopped. As long as hardware is not locked, and people still can code, there is hope.
V__ 3y ago
Even if this passes, does anyone know how EU courts stand on this issue? They have repeatedly slashed data retention as unconstitutional, so I'm holding out hope.

131 points by ssklash 3y ago

This is 90% mass surveillance for general law enforcement, 9% state spying, and 1% about stopping child sex abuse. So of course, because 99% of the dragnet is unpalatable to the voters it is being forced onto, the focus is on CSAM. None of it is effective anyway, which is an open secret. Israel for example has one of the most extensive intelligence gathering programs in their region and they missed a huge military buildup on their doorstep. This technology is never used to help or protect people. Nobody forces through unpopular laws that cost billions of dollars to implement and utilise out of the goodness of their heart. Laws like this exist to keep tabs on the poor so that they don’t have the means to organise against the rich and powerful. Look at how Cambridge Analytica used dragnet data collection to help unpopular politicians win elections. This is what it’s about: power. The power to listen in. The power to keep tabs on you. The power to destroy the reputation of upstart competitors to your power.

0xy 3y ago
1% is an extremely generous claim. With Australia's spying program 'metadata retention' for example, the bill was sold as being for terrorism and CSAM and is now routinely used by local governments to hunt down people littering. Yup. Slippery slope from terrorism & CSAM all the way down to littering. Not to mention it has been routinely abused by police and spies to stalk girlfriends and other such egregious violations. The EU is far more incompetent so expect this on a far broader scale.
- raybb 3y ago
  Do you have a source for the littering bit?
  - snypher 3y ago
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/aussie-council-body-argues-access-to-metadata-would-help-thwart-illegal-activity/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/aussie-council-body-argues-acc...
sneak 3y ago
[flagged]
- para_parolu 3y ago
  Do you have evidences to support such belief about USA?
  - happymellon 3y ago
    Do you mean something like room 641A?

AlchemistCamp 3y ago

Hopefully WhatsApp, Signal and other chat providers cut off the EU rather than abandon end-to-end encryption.

JambalayaJim 3y ago
They will offer a backdoor
- miohtama 3y ago
  WhatsApp yes, Signal and Telegram no. Signal and Telegram do not have cash revenues from the EU, so they can be non-compliant. Worse is if Apple and Android integrate these features directly to the operating system.
  - sneak 3y ago
    Telegram isn’t e2ee. (Yes, it has an e2ee feature which you can turn on per chat if you remember, but nobody does this.)
    - codedokode 3y ago
      And why nobody does this? Maybe because they simply don't mind against reading their correspondence? Or because they do not want to look like a criminal trying to hide something?
      - rho138 3y ago
        > I have nothing to hide so please read all my comms big daddy government Dude everyone minds that their _private_ correspondence is being read by prying eyes. Just because you’re technically inclined to do so [enable e2ee per chat] doesn’t mean that the lowest common denominator human is capable or willing to do so. Which is why secure by default - without state compromise a la Telegram & WhatsApp - is so important.
    - theragra 3y ago

Reubend 3y ago

We need better laws to enshrine the right to privacy. Otherwise, we'll keep getting proposals like this until eventually one gets approved.

runningaway 3y ago
The constitution of Finland states "The secrecy of correspondence, telephony and other confidential communications is inviolable". It can't be any clearer than that. I don't understand why, but this doesn't seem to matter.
- qris 3y ago
  The primacy of European Union law is a legal principle establishing precedence of European Union law over conflicting national laws of EU member states. The principle was derived from an interpretation of the European Court of Justice, which ruled that European law has priority over any contravening national law, including the constitution of a member state itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

miohtama 3y ago

Earlier https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the-eus-fight-over-scanning-for-child-sex-content/ https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the... It’s American scan software company and corrupted Swedish politicians lobbying this

jessenaser 3y ago

On device client side scanning requires a DRM for devices. This means you could not install Linux on computers, you must only install what the hardware lets you install, from some cryptographic chip. Besides encryption, besides all else. This would lead to a world where whatever levels of control could be put on devices, they will. - Iran phones won't let you install free communications apps. - Chinese phones won't let you install VPNs. - Indian phones will put a backdoor into your encryption PGP, so it can sign messages acting on your behalf, or DocuSign behalf. This isn't talking about Apple phones that do not let you install software you want. This is saying there will be a MARKET restriction in the European Union, such that a free product IS NOT POSSIBLE. --- However there are truths: 1. Once hardware is published it cannot be changed on the fly. 2. Peer to peer protocols cannot be stopped. As long as hardware is not locked, and people still can code, there is hope.

V__ 3y ago

Even if this passes, does anyone know how EU courts stand on this issue? They have repeatedly slashed data retention as unconstitutional, so I'm holding out hope.