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> Do you really benefit from knowing which of two Harvard grads got a few extra questions right in a handful of exams? It isn't just "a few extra questions", w

> Do you really benefit from knowing which of two Harvard grads got a few extra questions right in a handful of exams? It isn't just "a few extra questions", when professors makes tests harder they add more interesting questions that requires you to think further rather than just plug-n-chug. The difference between a 4.0 student and a 3.0 student at lets say Caltech is enormous, so yeah I care.

ceejayoz 3y ago
If you wanna make questions challenge students to think harder, by all means do so. If you do, and an entire classroom of kids manages to answer them correctly, "I guess I have to still give some of you Bs and Cs" isn't a great response.
- Jensson 3y ago
  But that is how it works at other prestigious universities, basically every professor thinks that students doesn't learn stuff well enough and would want to test even more thorough understanding than they already do. It isn't about grading on a curve, it is about giving a good test for the students. It isn't like students at any institution understands the material as well as the professor even when they get the highest grade in that class, but that is the goal. The better the students the closer you can get, Harvard just refuses to test that properly, or if they do test it they don't record that grade. Edit: What I meant is that they typically don't grade on a curve, so it works as the poster I replied to wanted it to work. Realized "that is how it works at X" could be taken as I mean they should grade on a curve.
beambot 3y ago
Why would you want "interesting problems that require you to think further" to be on exams?! That should be the entire point of lectures, office-hours, group problem solving, etc...
- Jensson 3y ago
  Because they test if students understand the material well enough to apply it to nonstandard problems. A person who can solve nonstandard problems is much more valuable than a person who can just solve standard problems.
  - beambot 3y ago
    Curious. I always assumed the primary purpose of an exam was to demonstrate proficiency, not mastery -- especially for undergraduate coursework. If you want mastery, you look at other work product: Projects, research, letters of recommendation, etc. Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia -- from the perspective of someone who spent entirely too many years in the sector (all the way through postdoc).
    - Jensson 3y ago
      Practicing to solve tons of standard problems is a waste of time, it doesn't help you grow much, which is why having interesting problems on exams is way better since it gives students a better goal to aim towards. It also gives a fairer view of each students understanding, since students tend to forget everything they crammed to pass the standard questions. > Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia I wouldn't call interesting test questions pedantry or intellectual hazing. Giving tons of basic easy questions is pedantry and intellectual hazing to me, I'd rather just have the harder questions.
      - beambot 3y ago
        Exams designed to have a 60% median score with subsequent curve adjustment are (a) wildly common in elite colleges, and (b) certainly classify as hazing in my book.
        swatcoder 3y ago
        For people pursuing personal growth rather than a starry transcript, challenging tests are more like "lifting to failure" or "grinding the boss on hard mode" than hazing. But on the other hand, yeah, for fragile egos and given the very high stakes associated with one's transcript, not everyone is there to get good and it can absolutely be devastating to never ace tests like you did in earlier years. Different programs/eductators may have more sympathy for one group than the other, but there's no viciousness involved.

ceejayoz 3y ago

If you wanna make questions challenge students to think harder, by all means do so. If you do, and an entire classroom of kids manages to answer them correctly, "I guess I have to still give some of you Bs and Cs" isn't a great response.

Jensson 3y ago
But that is how it works at other prestigious universities, basically every professor thinks that students doesn't learn stuff well enough and would want to test even more thorough understanding than they already do. It isn't about grading on a curve, it is about giving a good test for the students. It isn't like students at any institution understands the material as well as the professor even when they get the highest grade in that class, but that is the goal. The better the students the closer you can get, Harvard just refuses to test that properly, or if they do test it they don't record that grade. Edit: What I meant is that they typically don't grade on a curve, so it works as the poster I replied to wanted it to work. Realized "that is how it works at X" could be taken as I mean they should grade on a curve.

beambot 3y ago

Why would you want "interesting problems that require you to think further" to be on exams?! That should be the entire point of lectures, office-hours, group problem solving, etc...

Jensson 3y ago
Because they test if students understand the material well enough to apply it to nonstandard problems. A person who can solve nonstandard problems is much more valuable than a person who can just solve standard problems.
- beambot 3y ago
  Curious. I always assumed the primary purpose of an exam was to demonstrate proficiency, not mastery -- especially for undergraduate coursework. If you want mastery, you look at other work product: Projects, research, letters of recommendation, etc. Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia -- from the perspective of someone who spent entirely too many years in the sector (all the way through postdoc).
  - Jensson 3y ago
    Practicing to solve tons of standard problems is a waste of time, it doesn't help you grow much, which is why having interesting problems on exams is way better since it gives students a better goal to aim towards. It also gives a fairer view of each students understanding, since students tend to forget everything they crammed to pass the standard questions. > Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia I wouldn't call interesting test questions pedantry or intellectual hazing. Giving tons of basic easy questions is pedantry and intellectual hazing to me, I'd rather just have the harder questions.
    - beambot 3y ago
      Exams designed to have a 60% median score with subsequent curve adjustment are (a) wildly common in elite colleges, and (b) certainly classify as hazing in my book.
      - swatcoder 3y ago
        For people pursuing personal growth rather than a starry transcript, challenging tests are more like "lifting to failure" or "grinding the boss on hard mode" than hazing. But on the other hand, yeah, for fragile egos and given the very high stakes associated with one's transcript, not everyone is there to get good and it can absolutely be devastating to never ace tests like you did in earlier years. Different programs/eductators may have more sympathy for one group than the other, but there's no viciousness involved.