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Normally the classes have harder tests at more prestigious schools, ensuring that most people doesn't reach an A. I've worked with people from Harvard, they wer

Normally the classes have harder tests at more prestigious schools, ensuring that most people doesn't reach an A. I've worked with people from Harvard, they weren't smart enough to consistently get A's in hard classes, so it seems to me like Harvard doesn't grade as harshly or have easier classes than most other prestigious universities. I understand why they do it, they want their students to not have problems due to low grades, but that also means that a Harvard degree isn't as useful as a sorting mechanism because I can't tell the difference between top students and the rest.

ceejayoz 3y ago
> I understand why they do it, they want their students to not have problems due to low grades, but that also means that a Harvard degree isn't as useful as a sorting mechanism because I can't tell the difference between top students and the rest. They got into Harvard and were subsequently successful there. Do you really benefit from knowing which of two Harvard grads got a few extra questions right in a handful of exams?
- Jensson 3y ago
  > Do you really benefit from knowing which of two Harvard grads got a few extra questions right in a handful of exams? It isn't just "a few extra questions", when professors makes tests harder they add more interesting questions that requires you to think further rather than just plug-n-chug. The difference between a 4.0 student and a 3.0 student at lets say Caltech is enormous, so yeah I care.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    If you wanna make questions challenge students to think harder, by all means do so. If you do, and an entire classroom of kids manages to answer them correctly, "I guess I have to still give some of you Bs and Cs" isn't a great response.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      But that is how it works at other prestigious universities, basically every professor thinks that students doesn't learn stuff well enough and would want to test even more thorough understanding than they already do. It isn't about grading on a curve, it is about giving a good test for the students. It isn't like students at any institution understands the material as well as the professor even when they get the highest grade in that class, but that is the goal. The better the students the closer you can get, Harvard just refuses to test that properly, or if they do test it they don't record that grade. Edit: What I meant is that they typically don't grade on a curve, so it works as the poster I replied to wanted it to work. Realized "that is how it works at X" could be taken as I mean they should grade on a curve.
  - beambot 3y ago
    Why would you want "interesting problems that require you to think further" to be on exams?! That should be the entire point of lectures, office-hours, group problem solving, etc...
    - Jensson 3y ago
      Because they test if students understand the material well enough to apply it to nonstandard problems. A person who can solve nonstandard problems is much more valuable than a person who can just solve standard problems.
      - beambot 3y ago
        Curious. I always assumed the primary purpose of an exam was to demonstrate proficiency, not mastery -- especially for undergraduate coursework. If you want mastery, you look at other work product: Projects, research, letters of recommendation, etc. Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia -- from the perspective of someone who spent entirely too many years in the sector (all the way through postdoc).
        Jensson 3y ago
        Practicing to solve tons of standard problems is a waste of time, it doesn't help you grow much, which is why having interesting problems on exams is way better since it gives students a better goal to aim towards. It also gives a fairer view of each students understanding, since students tend to forget everything they crammed to pass the standard questions. > Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia I wouldn't call interesting test questions pedantry or intellectual hazing. Giving tons of basic easy questions is pedantry and intellectual hazing to me, I'd rather just have the harder questions.
        beambot 3y ago
        Exams designed to have a 60% median score with subsequent curve adjustment are (a) wildly common in elite colleges, and (b) certainly classify as hazing in my book.
- laverya 3y ago
  > They got into Harvard Harvard admits quite a few people who would normally not qualify as the cream of the crop. Above average, even good - but the worst Harvard admit is probably on par with the smartest kid at the local community college. They might bring other things to campus! But that doesn't mean you want them handling your legal defense or managing your money. > and were subsequently successful there. If 80% of the grades at Harvard are As, this just means you're not in the bottom 20%. I would also generally assume that this 80% is not uniform - some classes or even majors will give out higher percentages of As than others.

ceejayoz 3y ago

> I understand why they do it, they want their students to not have problems due to low grades, but that also means that a Harvard degree isn't as useful as a sorting mechanism because I can't tell the difference between top students and the rest. They got into Harvard and were subsequently successful there. Do you really benefit from knowing which of two Harvard grads got a few extra questions right in a handful of exams?

Jensson 3y ago
> Do you really benefit from knowing which of two Harvard grads got a few extra questions right in a handful of exams? It isn't just "a few extra questions", when professors makes tests harder they add more interesting questions that requires you to think further rather than just plug-n-chug. The difference between a 4.0 student and a 3.0 student at lets say Caltech is enormous, so yeah I care.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  If you wanna make questions challenge students to think harder, by all means do so. If you do, and an entire classroom of kids manages to answer them correctly, "I guess I have to still give some of you Bs and Cs" isn't a great response.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    But that is how it works at other prestigious universities, basically every professor thinks that students doesn't learn stuff well enough and would want to test even more thorough understanding than they already do. It isn't about grading on a curve, it is about giving a good test for the students. It isn't like students at any institution understands the material as well as the professor even when they get the highest grade in that class, but that is the goal. The better the students the closer you can get, Harvard just refuses to test that properly, or if they do test it they don't record that grade. Edit: What I meant is that they typically don't grade on a curve, so it works as the poster I replied to wanted it to work. Realized "that is how it works at X" could be taken as I mean they should grade on a curve.
- beambot 3y ago
  Why would you want "interesting problems that require you to think further" to be on exams?! That should be the entire point of lectures, office-hours, group problem solving, etc...
  - Jensson 3y ago
    Because they test if students understand the material well enough to apply it to nonstandard problems. A person who can solve nonstandard problems is much more valuable than a person who can just solve standard problems.
    - beambot 3y ago
      Curious. I always assumed the primary purpose of an exam was to demonstrate proficiency, not mastery -- especially for undergraduate coursework. If you want mastery, you look at other work product: Projects, research, letters of recommendation, etc. Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia -- from the perspective of someone who spent entirely too many years in the sector (all the way through postdoc).
      - Jensson 3y ago
        Practicing to solve tons of standard problems is a waste of time, it doesn't help you grow much, which is why having interesting problems on exams is way better since it gives students a better goal to aim towards. It also gives a fairer view of each students understanding, since students tend to forget everything they crammed to pass the standard questions. > Pedantry and intellectual hazing seem endemic in academia I wouldn't call interesting test questions pedantry or intellectual hazing. Giving tons of basic easy questions is pedantry and intellectual hazing to me, I'd rather just have the harder questions.
        beambot 3y ago
        Exams designed to have a 60% median score with subsequent curve adjustment are (a) wildly common in elite colleges, and (b) certainly classify as hazing in my book.
laverya 3y ago
> They got into Harvard Harvard admits quite a few people who would normally not qualify as the cream of the crop. Above average, even good - but the worst Harvard admit is probably on par with the smartest kid at the local community college. They might bring other things to campus! But that doesn't mean you want them handling your legal defense or managing your money. > and were subsequently successful there. If 80% of the grades at Harvard are As, this just means you're not in the bottom 20%. I would also generally assume that this 80% is not uniform - some classes or even majors will give out higher percentages of As than others.