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> Funny how I could use the same logic to defend Hamas. Nonsense. The difference of intentionally executing babies and children and kidnapping civilians should

• AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  And note that, when Hamas fired missiles, they didn't issue a clearance warning. Still less when they sent on-the-ground fighters. Israel causes civilian casualties. Hamas deliberately tries to create civilian casualties. They are not morally equivalent.
• fzil 3y ago
  > intentionally executing babies and children spare me the propaganda please, the same line has been repeated since Iraq war. And here we are 30 years later, were Biden says that he saw pictures of kids decapitated and hours later refuted by his own staff. There's pictures upon pictures of Gazan kids and infants being pulled out of rubble and not much acknowledgement of it. > [...] and kidnapping civilians should be stark. Shame on you. Don't mistake my comment for me actually defending Hamas and the atrocities last weekend. It was to point out that the IDF/Israeli govt didn't exactly descend from heaven and they are just as horrific morally. > Unlike the Hamas Israel tried to have a peaceful solution multiple times. Including a Palestinian state. Hamas is around 20 years old. Please take a look as to what has happened during the same period to the West Bank which is controlled by non-violent PLO. Armed settlers have taken over neighborhoods and Palestinians are left with no recourse. > I understand that rage and I honestly understood the recent incursions in Jenin, they made sense. They focused on settlers and on the military. The 2023 incursions in Jenin were offensives by the IDF and the Israeli Border Police. Unless you are talking about something else, please link it here as I wasn't able to find any Hamas or other Palestinian offensives this year in Jenin. > The word genocide is problematic here. The IDF specifically issued a clearance warning indicating its targets in advance. That's not something you do if you plan to kill civilians. No, you put them in a medieval style siege by cutting of water, electricity, food and any external aid. There's that interview with ex PM of Israel, Naftali Bennett, where he was asked about the Gazan kids in incubators and his reply was "Are you seriously asking me about Palestinian Civilians? What is wrong with you?" So, when Israeli officials ask for _half_ of Gaza to evacuate to the south, these 1.1 million people have nowhere to go. Atm, ~400k Gazans are displaced from their homes, how many of these were Hamas? > Calling it ethnic cleansing is untrue at the moment. Even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't back that up. Roughly 50% of Gaza's population is under 18. Its the result of decades of indiscriminate killing by the IDF. I wonder at what point of this conflict Israeli's realize that they are fighting a force of kids who grew up in the constant shelling of their homes. And this weeks bombing on civilian infrastructure in Gaza is only going to result in another battalion for Hamas in a decades time. > Notice that even now the Hamas is still firing missiles onto Israel and I just walked out of a shelter... I hope you and your loved ones are safe and make it out of this mess. I just want everyone to understand that on the other side of the wall there are families that are sitting in their apartments without protection from an American funded Iron Dome or bomb shelters, waiting to die out of no fault of their own. And for whatever reason people (politicians / journalists of countries that I am a citizen / generally a supporter of) think that Israel in its right to defend itself is justified in leveling Gaza.
  • invalidname 3y ago
    > spare me the propaganda please, the same line has been repeated since Iraq war. And here we are 30 years later, were Biden says that he saw pictures of kids decapitated and hours later refuted by his own staff. There's pictures upon pictures of Gazan kids and infants being pulled out of rubble and not much acknowledgement of it. There's plenty of acknowledgement of that. Notice that Israel threw more bombs than anyone ever did in a matter of days. Thousands of bombs. The Hamas historically always inflated numbers (as the Nazis did in Dresden by adding a zero). Even if you take their number as of yesterday of 1,500 for 6,000 bombs. That number shows a remarkable effort to avoid hitting civilians. There are also many stories of staging photos on the Hamas side, putting a child within the rubble so you can pull them out later. I don't doubt kids were hurt and it's terrible, but children dying from bombing is something that happened in every war since the cannon. It isn't news and it isn't intentional. > The 2023 incursions in Jenin were offensives by the IDF and the Israeli Border Police. Yes. I think what Israel did in the territories is terrible. There's an uprising there that has left quite a few Israelis dead. Again, terrible. Lots of shootings at settlers. But I think that's a legitimate struggle. > There's that interview with ex PM of Israel, Naftali Bennett I didn't vote for him. I agree, and his comparison to Dresden is just stupid. Again, I think the bombings aren't doing Israel any good and aren't REALLY damaging to the Hamas. In fact, I think they wanted Israel to bomb them as it changes public opinion against Israel and forces the Palestinians in the street to side with Hamas. I think PM Netanyahu is a useful idiot in service of Hamas. People losing their home (temporarily) isn't genocide. It's a tragedy but it isn't genocide. But the core of the issue is how the hell do you fight an enemy that intentionally hides within civilian population and sees it as his god given duty to sacrifice these civilians. This isn't hyperbole, they actually believe that by killing their own people as pawns they will guarantee them a place in heaven! > Roughly 50% of Gaza's population is under 18. Its the result of decades of indiscriminate killing by the IDF. That isn't true. It's a result of a fantastically high birthrate and disregard for life by the Hamas. > I hope you and your loved ones are safe and make it out of this mess. I just want everyone to understand that on the other side of the wall there are families that are sitting in their apartments without protection from an American funded Iron Dome or bomb shelters, waiting to die out of no fault of their own. And for whatever reason people (politicians / journalists of countries that I am a citizen / generally a supporter of) think that Israel in its right to defend itself is justified in leveling Gaza. I have friends on the other side of that wall. I care for them and don't want them to get hurt either. As I said, the mob mentality on both sides is high and that is the thing that has me stressed about this the most. I'm old enough to remember a time before the Intefada in the 80s where we used to live side by side with Palestinians from the territories. I used to work side by side with a young Palestinian, a great guy. Younger Israelis and immigrants (who are many) don't have that experience because of the Intefada and the wall. Both sides only see each other through a barrel of a gun and have a problem of disassociation, they think of the other side as "them" instead of as people. Events like these further strengthen that terrible disconnect. The people on the other side of the wall need help, we need to stop the Hamas who is killing them. But instead of doing that the Israeli government funded Hamas for years because our PM is a moron. We've demonstrated repeatedly trying to get him removed (he's also a criminal under multiple trials). But he won't budge. I think he knew this attack was coming and might be using it as an excuse to further subvert democracy.
• ignoramous 3y ago
  > The current government includes people who are terrible racists and they did the al-Alqsa stuff. They are the Israeli counterparts of the Hamas. You say you see no paralells, and so, hypothetically speaking, you'd have no trouble if the Palestinians bombed the cities these law markers live in, who use the shield of democracy to hide behind a 10 million strong populace? > They are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for their god, it's a war for the purpose of death not liberation. The Palestinians don't desire death. I'm sure, they'd want to live as freely and as purposefully as folks on the other side of the fence in Ashkelon and Ashdod. > The IDF specifically issued a clearance warning indicating its targets in advance. That's not something you do if you plan to kill civilians. What about the seige? There have been reports of shelling without warning, too. I recall, that's how a journalist reporting from there died. Surely, there is a way other than destruction at this scale to kill a handful of who, you claim, are suicidal folks fighting for God? > Calling it ethnic cleansing is untrue at the moment. Even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't back that up. Notice that even now the Hamas is still firing missiles onto Israel and I just walked out of a shelter... Surely, you can see that the refugee camps of the West Bank, the barriers in Jerusalem, the walls in Hebron, the crossings at Gaza pack a generation of humiliation which leads to desperation that results in nothing but more pain. Both sides have suffered enough. The problem I see is, one side (in particular, the terriblly racist but democratically-elected government you allude to above) thinks some more years of fierceful force, while they have the economic, political, and military backing of the Western world and while the Arab world is reeling from political and socio-economic turmoil, and it could all be finished soon.
  • invalidname 3y ago
    > You say you see no paralells, and so, hypothetically speaking, you'd have no trouble if the Palestinians bombed the cities these law markers live in, who use the shield of democracy to hide behind a 10 million strong populace? I understand the missiles. I think it hurts their own people more but I do understand that. The saying here is that if Hamas puts down its arms there will be peace. If Israel puts down its arms there will be no more Israelis. That isn't wrong although the reality is more nuanced. E.g. the PLO did put down its arms and the result isn't stellar for them either. This is exactly due to those racist government elements. The racists on the Israeli side actually supported Hamas until last week. They did that in order to weaken the PLO and weaken the chance of a Palestinian state. Unfortunately, they were very successful. The PLO at its current state is so weak, the Palestinian people have no real leadership. Even if Israel is successful in destroying the Hamas there will be a huge vacuum and no one to run a Palestinian state. > > They are not fighting for their people, they are fighting for their god, it's a war for the purpose of death not liberation. > The Palestinians don't desire death. I'm sure, they'd want to live as freely and as purposefully as folks on the other side of the fence in Ashkelon and Ashdod. I was writing about the Hamas not the Palestinian people. The Hamas wants death plain and simple. If you don't believe me I suggest reading up on them and their charter. They consider any Palestinian civilian death as part of the holy war to be a blessing. They are unwilling to settle for a part of the land. They demand the entire state of Israel. There's no negotiating, no discussion and no compromise. > What about the seige? There have been reports of shelling without warning, too. I totally agree that this is horrible and isn't helpful to Israel or its cause. Unfortunately, there's a thirst for blood on the Israeli side. You need to understand the scale of this thing. It's a small country. It's as if 9/11 had 40,000 casualties adjusted to population size. Everyone knows someone who was there and probably at least one casualty. Hamas new exactly what they were doing. That's why they kidnapped children. That's a trigger at a level and scale we've never seen. They know how to push the buttons and are doing it to trigger the government with the express intention for Israel to murder as many Palestinians as possible. They hope this will enrage the surrounding Arab countries enough to trigger an all out regional holy war for the destruction of Israel. Israeli bombing civilians is something Israel is doing as part of a Hamas strategy. It's stupid and plain evil. > I recall, that's how a journalist reporting from there died. There were several journalist deaths but only one from Lebanon was reported here recently so I might have missed one. Israel said it is investigating it but honestly, they don't do a great job with that. To be fair, plenty of journalists died in US wars too. But again. I think the bombings are terrible and mostly help the cause of the Hamas. > Surely, there is a way other than destruction at this scale to kill a handful of who, you claim, are suicidal folks fighting for God? I would surely hope so but there will be many casualties either way. Ground forces will go in and those will increase dramatically. This is warfare in neighborhoods. That's hard and deadly. Even a tank becomes vulnerable and often can't move. Finding the enemy in these situations is nearly impossible. The logistic concept of destroying the buildings is removing places to hide when the ground forces move through the streets. > Surely, you can see that the refugee camps of the West Bank, the barriers in Jerusalem, the walls in Hebron, the crossings at Gaza pack a generation of humiliation which leads to desperation that results in nothing but more pain. I agree. This situation includes a lot of fault for Israel and its leadership. Unfortunately, I don't see things improving. Even if Bibi is finally held accountable for this debacle the question is who will replace him. People write about these things a lot in the local papers. There are many organizations that try to fight for the Palestinian people and try to restore faith in a two country solution. But so much poison was thrown in the well that the majority of people around here refuse to see the other side. Major claims are here are: * Hamas was voted into power - they chose the Hamas. * When the attack happened last week people were celebrating in the streets in Gaza. They aren't wrong. For more than a decade Hamas controlled the narrative in the west bank and brainwashed a generation. They all believe that we're all murderers and must all be killed. How do you unwind that and make peace? Since the Palestinian leadership was decimated who do you even make peace with? As a very far left liberal humanist I'm at a loss here. I don't know how anyone can fix the current situation.