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The amount of revisionist history here is a bit absurd. Let us make it clear. Israel outright denied multiple partition maps. Israel had the advantage of being

The amount of revisionist history here is a bit absurd. Let us make it clear. Israel outright denied multiple partition maps. Israel had the advantage of being on the side designing the UN maps too. It is incredibly well known that most of the maps proposed by Israel included Jerusalem as exclusively Israeli territory. They also allocated more land to Israel than the Arabs, despite having less than half the population. On average, 60% of the land, going to less than 30% of the population. No fucking shit the Arabs were having none of it. So no, that's a completely stupid and nonsense argument. Egypt closing the border? You forgot the time period. Everyone has closed borders. Egypt was one of them. And either way, this is irrelevant. Israel kicked out Palestinians, not Egypt. Further more, you claim the increase in education is some sort of Israeli achievement. It is not. It is literally the global trend in literacy throughout at the time. You could literally say the same thing about Japan, China, India. Finally, Gaza itself. Look at the west bank. Do you see hamas attacking from there? No. It is from Lebanon and Gaza. Why? Because Palestinians can actually have a life in the WestBank. Because Gaza is a literal 1:1 open air prison. Digging wells is illegal, all Gaza water is owned by Israel Fishing is illegal. All water rights are owned by Israel. (Not a joke) Exports are almost completely illegal. Imports as well. Business is mostly illegal, primarily to "stop hamas from acquiring funds". Immigration is also illegal. You are only allowed to leave with a work visa. Good luck getting one. Education is practically non existent. Ironically, Israel has literally demolished multiple schools in Gaza. People born in Gaza basically cannot leave. So you have a poorly educated, frustrated population. Tons of spare time, nothing they can do. And then along comes Hamas. "Hey kiddo, wanna see the outside world?"

tguvot 3y ago
there are too many alternative facts in your post . i will refer to only one. or two >It is literally the global trend in literacy throughout at the time. You could literally say the same thing about Japan, China, India. gaza was both occupied by egypt and fenced off by egypt, unlike joran that annexed west bank. israel brought to gaza electricity, phones, sewage systems. built hospitals and schools. "global trends" do not make things happen. people make things happen >Look at the west bank. Do you see hamas attacking from there? No. It is from Lebanon and Gaza. Why? Because Palestinians can actually have a life in the WestBank. so, after Hamas massacred PA authority/PLO people in gaza (you know, throwing people from buildings, drugging them behind cars) in 2007, PA in west bank spends considerable efforts to eradicate hamas from west bank. Hamas is mortal enemy of PA in west bank. PA in west bank has deep security cooperation with Israel in order to deal hamas. No hamas > no rockets&mortars flying to Israel > people can live a good life. So please, don't confuse cause and consequences. Take a look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_... and compare it to timeline at which blockade was established and try to see how many of those attacks took place from West Bank
- Prickle 3y ago
  > gaza was both occupied by egypt and fenced off by egypt, unlike joran that annexed west bank. israel brought to gaza electricity, phones, sewage systems. built hospitals and schools. "global trends" do not make things happen. people make things happen Yea no. That is actually just not relevant. Once again, this is a global trend! Massive infrastructure projects, massive new investments in the economy. Post war economic miracle. Global trends are literally set by people. Literacy rates were increasing rapidly during that time. Medical technologies saw massive investment and growth due to the experience of, and aftermath of a global war. > so, after Hamas massacred PA authority/PLO people in gaza (you know, throwing people from buildings, drugging them behind cars) in 2007, PA in west bank spends considerable efforts to eradicate hamas from west bank. Hamas is mortal enemy of PA in west bank. PA in west bank has deep security cooperation with Israel in order to deal hamas. This is literally my point! Israel can, and has that ability to fight Hamas in the west bank! And now because Gaza is a convenient political tool, the PA have started losing votes to Hamas in recent elections in the west bank! None of that would happen, were it not for keeping Gaza as a literal open air prison! Your view is literally the opposite of reality. > Good Life => No reason to join radical terrorist group => Hamas weakens.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    on west bank 98% of job is done by PA. not by IDF. Its very rare occasion for Idf to get involved. West bank and gaza in general are very different places with "different" population. I did hear in past sentiments from palestinians on west bank that gazans are uneducated animals. This can partly be attributed to what I wrote before: Jordan annexed west bank and kinda tried "uplift" population while Egypt let gaza rot for 20 years. Israel couldn't handle hamas in gaza and this is why it pulled out. Just like it pulled out of south lebanon that had "sympathetic" south lebanon army. After pulling out of gaza israel tried to keep control of gaza<>egypt border in order to prevent smuggling via tunnels but it wasn't sustainable without creating depopulated strip a couple of miles deep. there were considered "light versions" of it, but supreme court prohibited doing so and army realized that it pointless anyway. so israel pulled out of this area as well. when israel pulled out there was expression "gaza can become either singapore or mogadishu, and it's up to gazans to decide". after israel pulled out all the agricaltural equipment that was left behind (also was controversial but there were hope that it will help to develop industry/economy) was trashed, houses were looted and hamas proceeded with shooting even more rockets and mortars.
skissane 3y ago
> Digging wells is illegal, all Gaza water is owned by Israel That's not true. There are over 10,000 wells in Gaza. Hamas controls who is allowed to dig wells in Gaza [0] – Israel lacks effective control over the territory of Gaza so has no ability to stop anyone from digging a well there. The problem Gaza has, is a lot of the water from the wells is undrinkable, in part due to intrusion of seawater into the aquifer. Israel extracts a lot of water from the same aquifer further inland, which is argued worsens the seawater intrusion problem. However, desalination is used to deal with this problem, and international donors have spent significant sums on providing desalination equipment to communities in Gaza. That requires electricity (of which there is not always a reliable supply), and parts and consumables for repair and maintenance (for which there can sometimes be difficulties getting Israel to permit their import.) > Fishing is illegal According to [1]: "The total catch in Gazan waters has risen in recent years, according to the Palestinian bureau of statistics, from 2,322.9 metric tons in 2006 to 3,943.4 in 2019, when Israel expanded the permitted fishing zone to 15 nautical miles in some areas from six, but still short of the 20 nautical miles agreed to under the Oslo accords, the 1990s peace agreement that was supposed to lay the path for Palestinian statehood." It is true that Israel has a negative impact on Gaza's fishing industry – through limiting how far out to sea Gazans are permitted to fish, and by restricting import of goods needed to repair boats, many of which are classified by the Israeli government as "dual use" technologies – but a 2019 catch of over 3900 metric tons is hardly "fishing is illegal" [0] https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/08/gazans-fear-worst-after-hamas-bans-water-wells https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/08/gazans-fear-wor... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/27/world/middleeast/israeli-blockade-gaza-fishing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/27/world/middleeast/israeli-...
- Prickle 3y ago
  > That's not true. There are over 10,000 wells in Gaza. Hamas controls who is allowed to dig wells in Gaza [0] – Israel lacks effective control over the territory of Gaza so has no ability to stop anyone from digging a well there. False. All water in the Gaza strip, is explicitly controlled by the Israeli state. Specifically, this stems from the fact that the construction of wells requires a permit from Israel. More specifically, anything constructed without a specific, israeli approved permit, is demolished. This applies to both the WestBank and Gaza. [0][1] [0]https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-demolishes-palestinian-west-bank-school-2023-05-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-demolishes-... [1]https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-forces-destroy-wells-public-infrastructure https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/... > true that Israel has a negative impact on Gaza's fishing industry – through limiting how far out to sea Gazans are permitted to fish, Apparently I mistook the no-fishing zone along the coast as a complete ban. That is definitely my mistake.

tguvot 3y ago

there are too many alternative facts in your post . i will refer to only one. or two >It is literally the global trend in literacy throughout at the time. You could literally say the same thing about Japan, China, India. gaza was both occupied by egypt and fenced off by egypt, unlike joran that annexed west bank. israel brought to gaza electricity, phones, sewage systems. built hospitals and schools. "global trends" do not make things happen. people make things happen >Look at the west bank. Do you see hamas attacking from there? No. It is from Lebanon and Gaza. Why? Because Palestinians can actually have a life in the WestBank. so, after Hamas massacred PA authority/PLO people in gaza (you know, throwing people from buildings, drugging them behind cars) in 2007, PA in west bank spends considerable efforts to eradicate hamas from west bank. Hamas is mortal enemy of PA in west bank. PA in west bank has deep security cooperation with Israel in order to deal hamas. No hamas > no rockets&mortars flying to Israel > people can live a good life. So please, don't confuse cause and consequences. Take a look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_... and compare it to timeline at which blockade was established and try to see how many of those attacks took place from West Bank

Prickle 3y ago
> gaza was both occupied by egypt and fenced off by egypt, unlike joran that annexed west bank. israel brought to gaza electricity, phones, sewage systems. built hospitals and schools. "global trends" do not make things happen. people make things happen Yea no. That is actually just not relevant. Once again, this is a global trend! Massive infrastructure projects, massive new investments in the economy. Post war economic miracle. Global trends are literally set by people. Literacy rates were increasing rapidly during that time. Medical technologies saw massive investment and growth due to the experience of, and aftermath of a global war. > so, after Hamas massacred PA authority/PLO people in gaza (you know, throwing people from buildings, drugging them behind cars) in 2007, PA in west bank spends considerable efforts to eradicate hamas from west bank. Hamas is mortal enemy of PA in west bank. PA in west bank has deep security cooperation with Israel in order to deal hamas. This is literally my point! Israel can, and has that ability to fight Hamas in the west bank! And now because Gaza is a convenient political tool, the PA have started losing votes to Hamas in recent elections in the west bank! None of that would happen, were it not for keeping Gaza as a literal open air prison! Your view is literally the opposite of reality. > Good Life => No reason to join radical terrorist group => Hamas weakens.
- tguvot 3y ago
  on west bank 98% of job is done by PA. not by IDF. Its very rare occasion for Idf to get involved. West bank and gaza in general are very different places with "different" population. I did hear in past sentiments from palestinians on west bank that gazans are uneducated animals. This can partly be attributed to what I wrote before: Jordan annexed west bank and kinda tried "uplift" population while Egypt let gaza rot for 20 years. Israel couldn't handle hamas in gaza and this is why it pulled out. Just like it pulled out of south lebanon that had "sympathetic" south lebanon army. After pulling out of gaza israel tried to keep control of gaza<>egypt border in order to prevent smuggling via tunnels but it wasn't sustainable without creating depopulated strip a couple of miles deep. there were considered "light versions" of it, but supreme court prohibited doing so and army realized that it pointless anyway. so israel pulled out of this area as well. when israel pulled out there was expression "gaza can become either singapore or mogadishu, and it's up to gazans to decide". after israel pulled out all the agricaltural equipment that was left behind (also was controversial but there were hope that it will help to develop industry/economy) was trashed, houses were looted and hamas proceeded with shooting even more rockets and mortars.

skissane 3y ago

> Digging wells is illegal, all Gaza water is owned by Israel That's not true. There are over 10,000 wells in Gaza. Hamas controls who is allowed to dig wells in Gaza [0] – Israel lacks effective control over the territory of Gaza so has no ability to stop anyone from digging a well there. The problem Gaza has, is a lot of the water from the wells is undrinkable, in part due to intrusion of seawater into the aquifer. Israel extracts a lot of water from the same aquifer further inland, which is argued worsens the seawater intrusion problem. However, desalination is used to deal with this problem, and international donors have spent significant sums on providing desalination equipment to communities in Gaza. That requires electricity (of which there is not always a reliable supply), and parts and consumables for repair and maintenance (for which there can sometimes be difficulties getting Israel to permit their import.) > Fishing is illegal According to [1]: "The total catch in Gazan waters has risen in recent years, according to the Palestinian bureau of statistics, from 2,322.9 metric tons in 2006 to 3,943.4 in 2019, when Israel expanded the permitted fishing zone to 15 nautical miles in some areas from six, but still short of the 20 nautical miles agreed to under the Oslo accords, the 1990s peace agreement that was supposed to lay the path for Palestinian statehood." It is true that Israel has a negative impact on Gaza's fishing industry – through limiting how far out to sea Gazans are permitted to fish, and by restricting import of goods needed to repair boats, many of which are classified by the Israeli government as "dual use" technologies – but a 2019 catch of over 3900 metric tons is hardly "fishing is illegal" [0] https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/08/gazans-fear-worst-after-hamas-bans-water-wells https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/08/gazans-fear-wor... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/27/world/middleeast/israeli-blockade-gaza-fishing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/27/world/middleeast/israeli-...

Prickle 3y ago
> That's not true. There are over 10,000 wells in Gaza. Hamas controls who is allowed to dig wells in Gaza [0] – Israel lacks effective control over the territory of Gaza so has no ability to stop anyone from digging a well there. False. All water in the Gaza strip, is explicitly controlled by the Israeli state. Specifically, this stems from the fact that the construction of wells requires a permit from Israel. More specifically, anything constructed without a specific, israeli approved permit, is demolished. This applies to both the WestBank and Gaza. [0][1] [0]https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-demolishes-palestinian-west-bank-school-2023-05-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-demolishes-... [1]https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-forces-destroy-wells-public-infrastructure https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/... > true that Israel has a negative impact on Gaza's fishing industry – through limiting how far out to sea Gazans are permitted to fish, Apparently I mistook the no-fishing zone along the coast as a complete ban. That is definitely my mistake.