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I've been compiling a list of these things which "set us apart" from most other mammals: the "ones I'm more sure about" column contains: we can form complex voc

by drostie 15y ago

I've been compiling a list of these things which "set us apart" from most other mammals: the "ones I'm more sure about" column contains: we can form complex vocal patterns, we walk upright, we don't tiptoe everywhere, we're essentially naked, we have large brains, we bleed when we menstruate, our causal intuitions have come detached from their immediate objects. (There's also a "less sure about" column which contains things like "we sing for the hell of it" and "our hearts are distinctly on the left.") The tiptoeing one comes from when I was trying to discuss evolution with some intelligent design enthusiasts in the US (shudder). So the point they were making was, you can't possibly say that we look similar to dogs. And with my laptop I started pulling up skeletal diagrams of us and dogs, and showing that pretty much the entire logical structure of dogs' skeletons is identical to that of humans' skeletons, from shoulderblades to legs, if you think of them as standing on their tiptoes. It also points out a clear parallel between our arms, which have the same logical structure as our legs, and common ancestry suggests an elegant solution -- once, there was no difference between arms and legs, so of course they had the same structure -- natural selection just stole the recipe for one leg and used it four times. Anyway, it's very interesting to see that these observations about our nudity and non-tiptoe bipedal walk come from such a simple, easily-expressible underlying story. Thanks.

britta 15y ago
A number of people lead normal lives with hearts on the right sides of their bodies - there is dextrocardia (just the heart reversed) and situs inversus with dextrocardia (most internal organs reversed). Pretty neat.
- jeroen 15y ago
  To make the picture complete there is also situs inverses incompletus, which means that everything but the heart is mirrored.
arthurbrown 15y ago
There's an amazing talk given by Robert Sapolsky (Stanford Neurologist), discussing similar concepts. The talk has more to do with different behaviors that emerge between species and how the brain plays a role in that; rather than simply physical characteristics such as bleeding or movement. I'd highly reccomend watching it if at all interested http://youtu.be/YWZAL64E0DI http://youtu.be/YWZAL64E0DI
derrida 15y ago
Wait, 'we bleed when we menstruate'. Other animals don't?
- drostie 15y ago
  I'm surprised that this is even a question -- when's the last time you knew a cat or dog owner who was like, "yeah it's that time of the month for her, she's bleeding all over the house." But yes, for those of us who didn't grow up on farms, most animals reabsorb their menses and do not bleed externally. It might be one reason why pastoral farmers[1] thought that women were "unclean", and I'd be interested to know whether goddess-worship comes from more agrarian than pastoral societies. [1] The example I'm thinking of here is actually just the Torah. The Cain and Abel story clearly establishes that the authors are pastoral farmers who distrust those sneaky evil agriculturalists; and they also have an extensive code of cleanliness which includes a woman as unclean during menstruation.
  - jstclair 15y ago
    My dog (miniature schnauzer) bleeds quite a bit during her period. Apparently, it's not that uncommon.
    - Sharlin 15y ago
      To be precise, dogs (and practically all mammals except humans) don't have a "period" or a menstrual cycle. They have an estrous cycle instead.
    - drostie 15y ago
      Interesting, and useful to know!
    - guelo 15y ago
      This is different from menstruation, it occurs when the animal is ‘in heat’ during mid-cycle (at the time of ovulation) and the blood comes from the vaginal walls, not the uterus.
  - 15y ago
darklajid 15y ago
"we bleed when we menstruate" sounded way too weird. Maybe it still is valid if you set the emphasis on 'set apart from _most_' but it's nothing humans are unique in - according to a couple simple search terms. (See 1 - if Wikipedia is to believe what we consider normal menstruation _is_ common mostly for humans and our close relatives in the animal kingdom, but also happens in simians and .. erm.. bats?) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_%28mammal%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_%28mammal%29 2: https://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/do-other-animals-menstruate/ https://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/do-other-anima...
- drostie 15y ago
  "Most" is indeed key. For example, as far as "complex vocal patterns" go, there are birds which can learn to duplicate human speech and therefore have the vocal capacity of humans. Or, as far as bipedalism goes, you have the kangaroo -- and actually, if I count the animals that I've seen take a few steps on their hind legs, I'd have to also include dogs, a rabbit, a gerbil, and an elephant that was trying to get his mating on. Even our nakedness is shared by other species -- one of them is called the naked mole rat.
  - 6ren 15y ago
    Also birds for bipedalism. At the extreme we have ostriches and emus. BTW: cockatoos also have strikingly manipulative feet, which they use in combination with their beak (though they can't use both feet simultaneously). And a surprisingly high brain/body ratio. Although they lack a prefrontal cortex, birds have separately developed a different structure, called the hyperpallium. There's no necessary barrier for birds evolving sapience independently from our line (any more than for aliens) - and there's no reason that the architecture of our brains must be better/more efficient.
    - bitwize 15y ago
      Arguably, if Dr. Irene Pepperberg's work with Alex the African grey parrot is to be believed, bird sapience has already been demonstrated.
ars 15y ago
Another change for you is the birthing process for humans is much harder than that of any other animal. A human female is completely helpless for a much longer time during birth than any other animal - this requires a strong social structure to defend her. Another change is the enormous amount of time it takes a human to mature. Again, this requires a complex social structure to provide for children for a long time. Can you sense a pattern here?
- eatmyshorts 15y ago
  I guess you're not familiar with the Kiwi bird, then. I think they qualify as the longest birthing process, with their eggs weighing about 1/4 the weight of the entire bird, and where laying an egg incapacitates the female for months. Of course, as with many birds, kiwis have a strong social structure, mating for life, and with the male participating the birthing process through incubating. It's almost as if some animals have strong and complex social structures, too. Humans are indeed like other animals. Can you sense a pattern here?
  - ars 15y ago
    According to wikipedia it takes 1 month, not months, and the bird is only incapacitated toward the end of it. The children of a kiwi bird are not fed by the parent in some of the species, and they leave the nest within a few days to a month, despite the bird living possibly 30 years. No social relationships with other kiwis is required - only with the mate. So your example falls totally flat. Obviously some animals have one or another trait that compares to a human, but none have all of them - none even come close. Humans are not anything like other animals. Not sure what pattern you want me to see - you need more than one example to make a pattern.
bane 15y ago
"we don't tiptoe everywhere" Strangely enough it's actually something we share in common with bears, along with being omnivores. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantigrade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantigrade
philwelch 15y ago
"We build computer networks and use them to argue about what sets us apart from other mammals".
- drostie 15y ago
  Both of those are covered under "our causal intuitions have come detached from their immediate objects." ;-)

by drostie 15y ago

britta 15y ago

A number of people lead normal lives with hearts on the right sides of their bodies - there is dextrocardia (just the heart reversed) and situs inversus with dextrocardia (most internal organs reversed). Pretty neat.

jeroen 15y ago
To make the picture complete there is also situs inverses incompletus, which means that everything but the heart is mirrored.

arthurbrown 15y ago

There's an amazing talk given by Robert Sapolsky (Stanford Neurologist), discussing similar concepts. The talk has more to do with different behaviors that emerge between species and how the brain plays a role in that; rather than simply physical characteristics such as bleeding or movement. I'd highly reccomend watching it if at all interested http://youtu.be/YWZAL64E0DI http://youtu.be/YWZAL64E0DI

derrida 15y ago

Wait, 'we bleed when we menstruate'. Other animals don't?

drostie 15y ago
I'm surprised that this is even a question -- when's the last time you knew a cat or dog owner who was like, "yeah it's that time of the month for her, she's bleeding all over the house." But yes, for those of us who didn't grow up on farms, most animals reabsorb their menses and do not bleed externally. It might be one reason why pastoral farmers[1] thought that women were "unclean", and I'd be interested to know whether goddess-worship comes from more agrarian than pastoral societies. [1] The example I'm thinking of here is actually just the Torah. The Cain and Abel story clearly establishes that the authors are pastoral farmers who distrust those sneaky evil agriculturalists; and they also have an extensive code of cleanliness which includes a woman as unclean during menstruation.
- jstclair 15y ago
  My dog (miniature schnauzer) bleeds quite a bit during her period. Apparently, it's not that uncommon.
  - Sharlin 15y ago
    To be precise, dogs (and practically all mammals except humans) don't have a "period" or a menstrual cycle. They have an estrous cycle instead.
  - drostie 15y ago
    Interesting, and useful to know!
  - guelo 15y ago
    This is different from menstruation, it occurs when the animal is ‘in heat’ during mid-cycle (at the time of ovulation) and the blood comes from the vaginal walls, not the uterus.
- 15y ago

darklajid 15y ago

"we bleed when we menstruate" sounded way too weird. Maybe it still is valid if you set the emphasis on 'set apart from _most_' but it's nothing humans are unique in - according to a couple simple search terms. (See 1 - if Wikipedia is to believe what we consider normal menstruation _is_ common mostly for humans and our close relatives in the animal kingdom, but also happens in simians and .. erm.. bats?) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_%28mammal%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation_%28mammal%29 2: https://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/do-other-animals-menstruate/ https://myperiodblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/do-other-anima...

drostie 15y ago
"Most" is indeed key. For example, as far as "complex vocal patterns" go, there are birds which can learn to duplicate human speech and therefore have the vocal capacity of humans. Or, as far as bipedalism goes, you have the kangaroo -- and actually, if I count the animals that I've seen take a few steps on their hind legs, I'd have to also include dogs, a rabbit, a gerbil, and an elephant that was trying to get his mating on. Even our nakedness is shared by other species -- one of them is called the naked mole rat.
- 6ren 15y ago
  Also birds for bipedalism. At the extreme we have ostriches and emus. BTW: cockatoos also have strikingly manipulative feet, which they use in combination with their beak (though they can't use both feet simultaneously). And a surprisingly high brain/body ratio. Although they lack a prefrontal cortex, birds have separately developed a different structure, called the hyperpallium. There's no necessary barrier for birds evolving sapience independently from our line (any more than for aliens) - and there's no reason that the architecture of our brains must be better/more efficient.
  - bitwize 15y ago
    Arguably, if Dr. Irene Pepperberg's work with Alex the African grey parrot is to be believed, bird sapience has already been demonstrated.

ars 15y ago

Another change for you is the birthing process for humans is much harder than that of any other animal. A human female is completely helpless for a much longer time during birth than any other animal - this requires a strong social structure to defend her. Another change is the enormous amount of time it takes a human to mature. Again, this requires a complex social structure to provide for children for a long time. Can you sense a pattern here?

eatmyshorts 15y ago
I guess you're not familiar with the Kiwi bird, then. I think they qualify as the longest birthing process, with their eggs weighing about 1/4 the weight of the entire bird, and where laying an egg incapacitates the female for months. Of course, as with many birds, kiwis have a strong social structure, mating for life, and with the male participating the birthing process through incubating. It's almost as if some animals have strong and complex social structures, too. Humans are indeed like other animals. Can you sense a pattern here?
- ars 15y ago
  According to wikipedia it takes 1 month, not months, and the bird is only incapacitated toward the end of it. The children of a kiwi bird are not fed by the parent in some of the species, and they leave the nest within a few days to a month, despite the bird living possibly 30 years. No social relationships with other kiwis is required - only with the mate. So your example falls totally flat. Obviously some animals have one or another trait that compares to a human, but none have all of them - none even come close. Humans are not anything like other animals. Not sure what pattern you want me to see - you need more than one example to make a pattern.

bane 15y ago

"we don't tiptoe everywhere" Strangely enough it's actually something we share in common with bears, along with being omnivores. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantigrade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantigrade

philwelch 15y ago

"We build computer networks and use them to argue about what sets us apart from other mammals".

drostie 15y ago
Both of those are covered under "our causal intuitions have come detached from their immediate objects." ;-)