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There's also an increasing prevalence and popularity of e-ink displays. Though some of these are colour-capable, most are monochrome, and I've definitely had c

There's also an increasing prevalence and popularity of e-ink displays. Though some of these are colour-capable, most are monochrome, and I've definitely had challenges negotiating apps and content which use colour as a key differentiator.

mort96 3y ago
Is there actually an increasing prevalence and popularity of e-ink displays? I know there technically exists some "high refresh rate" e-ink screens these days (meaning you can get 10 FPS if you're comfortable with a whole lot of ghosting), but aren't e-ink screens still pretty much only used in dedicated e-book readers? Personally, I think it's just that monochrome icons are fashionable. I can't imagine that the GIMP developers for example chose to make GIMP's icons monochrome because that works better on e-ink screens.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  There's a wide range of e-ink tablets and displays available. Many of the tablets run Android and are largely the same as any other Android device. The displays can be used with any OS, obviously. There are also e-ink phones (smart and otherwise), watches, and other devices. For text and graphics, you'd generally want to use a higher-quality, lower-refresh-rate mode. Which is to say that there's quite a bit of established UI/UX knowledge that wants a refresh. I've distilled a set of basic principles: persistence is free, pixels are cheap, paints are slow, colour is (mostly) nonexistent, and the more ambient light the better. Paginated-navigation (whole screen changes in one go), line-art, and dithered or halftoned images work relatively well, raster images not quite so much, though can be acceptable. <https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba8448a5b29e257 https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba844...> For a demonstration of a wide range of displays (the best ones are featured last) as of 2021, see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4>
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  And specifically addressing prevelance and popularity ... I'm mostly commenting based on my own perception. Looking for more solid data ... ... I'm having difficulty finding e-ink / electronic paper market research, though one hit suggests an 8.5% CAGR: <https://dataintelo.com/report/global-e-ink-sales-market/ https://dataintelo.com/report/global-e-ink-sales-market/>. Using HN as a rough proxy, I see fairly substantial growth. Note that HN submissions overall have been fairly constant since 2012, per dang. "e-ink" 2007: 1 2008: 7 2009: 14 2010: 18 2011: 24 2012: 28 2013: 24 2014: 24 2015: 16 2016: 25 2017: 22 2018: 39 2019: 35 2020: 60 2021: 88 2022: 84 "Electronic Paper" has minimal hits, though by years above: 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 0, 1, 6, 1, 1, 0, 0, 8, 1. "Digital paper" has an even smaller smattering of hits.
pseudalopex 3y ago
I doubt Apple began removing color years ago for a display technology they never used.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  That wasn't my argument ... ... though Apple has had monochrome devices (the original Mac, the handheld Newton) ... ... and often makes preparations years on advance for long-term strategic moves. I'm putting very low emphasis on that last, as e-ink really doesn't seem to fit particularly well with the Apple ethos, except, perhaps, for watches. But if Apple were planning, or even contemplating, an e-ink device, ordering a flat white UI/UX might be precisely the first step in getting there.
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    What was your argument? Apple's historic monochrome devices are irrelevant. And Apple used color on color displays in those times.
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      My argument here (<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37869476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37869476>) is that across all OSes, and for the Web generally, being mindful of monochrome, low-refresh-rate displays is something that should be front-of-mind for UI/UX teams and design. Many of these issues already exist, e.g., for documents which are likely to be printed on monochrome devices. Colour is useful where available, but it is not universally available. (And that's before addressing issues such as colourblindness or other disability / accessibility considerations.) My original comment was not at all specific to Apple (you'd introduced them to the discussion), other vendors, or any specific OS or application. Simply that monochrome and e-ink are increasingly concerns. But since you raised the topic of Apple, and since, contrary to your initial statement that, broadly speaking, monochrome was "a display technology they never used", I'm both correcting the record, and noting that should there be a monochrome or e-ink prospect on Apple's roadmap, and further noting that Apple rather famously does not announce such roadmaps in advance, that flat/white would in fact fit with e-ink remarkably well. What that has to say about whether or not Apple is contemplating any such move I am, of course, entirely ignorant.

mort96 3y ago

Is there actually an increasing prevalence and popularity of e-ink displays? I know there technically exists some "high refresh rate" e-ink screens these days (meaning you can get 10 FPS if you're comfortable with a whole lot of ghosting), but aren't e-ink screens still pretty much only used in dedicated e-book readers? Personally, I think it's just that monochrome icons are fashionable. I can't imagine that the GIMP developers for example chose to make GIMP's icons monochrome because that works better on e-ink screens.

dredmorbius 3y ago
There's a wide range of e-ink tablets and displays available. Many of the tablets run Android and are largely the same as any other Android device. The displays can be used with any OS, obviously. There are also e-ink phones (smart and otherwise), watches, and other devices. For text and graphics, you'd generally want to use a higher-quality, lower-refresh-rate mode. Which is to say that there's quite a bit of established UI/UX knowledge that wants a refresh. I've distilled a set of basic principles: persistence is free, pixels are cheap, paints are slow, colour is (mostly) nonexistent, and the more ambient light the better. Paginated-navigation (whole screen changes in one go), line-art, and dithered or halftoned images work relatively well, raster images not quite so much, though can be acceptable. <https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba8448a5b29e257 https://diaspora.glasswings.com/posts/638a8d10e041013afba844...> For a demonstration of a wide range of displays (the best ones are featured last) as of 2021, see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4>
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dredmorbius 3y ago
And specifically addressing prevelance and popularity ... I'm mostly commenting based on my own perception. Looking for more solid data ... ... I'm having difficulty finding e-ink / electronic paper market research, though one hit suggests an 8.5% CAGR: <https://dataintelo.com/report/global-e-ink-sales-market/ https://dataintelo.com/report/global-e-ink-sales-market/>. Using HN as a rough proxy, I see fairly substantial growth. Note that HN submissions overall have been fairly constant since 2012, per dang. "e-ink" 2007: 1 2008: 7 2009: 14 2010: 18 2011: 24 2012: 28 2013: 24 2014: 24 2015: 16 2016: 25 2017: 22 2018: 39 2019: 35 2020: 60 2021: 88 2022: 84 "Electronic Paper" has minimal hits, though by years above: 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 0, 1, 6, 1, 1, 0, 0, 8, 1. "Digital paper" has an even smaller smattering of hits.

pseudalopex 3y ago

I doubt Apple began removing color years ago for a display technology they never used.

dredmorbius 3y ago
That wasn't my argument ... ... though Apple has had monochrome devices (the original Mac, the handheld Newton) ... ... and often makes preparations years on advance for long-term strategic moves. I'm putting very low emphasis on that last, as e-ink really doesn't seem to fit particularly well with the Apple ethos, except, perhaps, for watches. But if Apple were planning, or even contemplating, an e-ink device, ordering a flat white UI/UX might be precisely the first step in getting there.
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  What was your argument? Apple's historic monochrome devices are irrelevant. And Apple used color on color displays in those times.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    My argument here (<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37869476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37869476>) is that across all OSes, and for the Web generally, being mindful of monochrome, low-refresh-rate displays is something that should be front-of-mind for UI/UX teams and design. Many of these issues already exist, e.g., for documents which are likely to be printed on monochrome devices. Colour is useful where available, but it is not universally available. (And that's before addressing issues such as colourblindness or other disability / accessibility considerations.) My original comment was not at all specific to Apple (you'd introduced them to the discussion), other vendors, or any specific OS or application. Simply that monochrome and e-ink are increasingly concerns. But since you raised the topic of Apple, and since, contrary to your initial statement that, broadly speaking, monochrome was "a display technology they never used", I'm both correcting the record, and noting that should there be a monochrome or e-ink prospect on Apple's roadmap, and further noting that Apple rather famously does not announce such roadmaps in advance, that flat/white would in fact fit with e-ink remarkably well. What that has to say about whether or not Apple is contemplating any such move I am, of course, entirely ignorant.