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That whole train of thought not only requires that long-form virtual actors are within reach (we’re close but not there), but that all this recent generative wo

That whole train of thought not only requires that long-form virtual actors are within reach (we’re close but not there), but that all this recent generative work can escape having a signature at scale. There’s ZERO evidence of that right now and little reason to expect it. What’s dramatically more likely is that generative AI will be an incredible new medium, disrupting current arts and reshaping almost all art markets the way photography and sound recording each did a few. And its disruption applies to film, illustration, music, coding, writing, etc That’s no small achievement and its an exciting thing to witness, but it’s not the same as replacing the arts that already exist. Arts have shown themselves to be cockroaches, that simply adapt themselves around these sorts of disruptions. There will still be HUGE markets for human (and hybrid) arts even as they are smaller and differently shaped than what we saw in the 20th century.

garba_dlm 3y ago
> little reason to expect it. there's one huge reason to expect this: it's cheaper than real people (no salary, no royalties) only looks expensive because it's new. but it won't stay expensive because it's all software so it has zero cost of distribution (given the internet) > And its disruption applies to film, illustration, music, coding, writing, etc just keep going, this stuff will disrupt THE LAW. the foundation of civilized society as we know it!!! this goes beyond markets, markets are based upon the law!!!
- rnk 3y ago
  You are being silly about "the law!!!", right? I do agree that soon we'll have best movies with human actors, best movies with some AI actors, best movies with all AI actors. And then the academy will resist movies with AI actors, then maybe have a special category before they give up because all the movies have them.
  - rcarr 3y ago
    I wouldn't say they're being silly no. Think of what is going to happen when anyone on planet earth can make any kind of photo realistic propaganda materials they want. Imagine somewhere else on the planet with tensions between two communities like Israel-Hamas. Now imagine you're someone with an agenda. You can now create videos and news reports in the blink of an eye showing one faction murdering some kids from the other. Target some unstable "pizzagate" individuals with the videos and then wait for one of them to go on a vengeance rampage with the hope that it actually sparks a real riot or war. Or imagine there's a presidential election and one candidate wants to take down the other. So they buy your psychological profile from some data broker, then create a deep fake video of the candidate reading a speech tailored to make you dislike them. You don't even have to go so large scale. Imagine you're a teenager and you're mad because someone else is making moves on the person you fancy. So you decide to create a video of this love rival kicking a dog outside the school and upload it to Youtube under a fake account and then spread it round the school. It will get to the point where you cannot trust anything you see on the internet anymore. Laws are absolutely going to have to be created and rewritten to take into account this new reality. I strongly suspect all social media accounts will need to be tied to ID numbers like passports or social security at some point within the next 20 years.
    - swatcoder 3y ago
      Your first two examples are the only ones that are consequential and you don’t need AI for either. You could do all that a century ago and you can be 100% sure that intelligence agencies have.
      - rcarr 3y ago
        > Your first two examples are the only ones that are consequential Er no. That poor kid might end up getting socially shunned at best and lynch mobbed and killed at worst. I'd say that's pretty fucking consequential. And that's just one example of an infinite amount of scenarios. Every "big" event is just an aggregation of many individual stories. > and you don’t need AI for either. You are massively underestimating the scale of change. In the past you would have needed an entire team working many hours to create one short video of high enough quality to fool people. Now anyone, anywhere, will be able to create them in an instant. Not only that, they will be able to create videos tailored to an individual and delivered to them for maximum effect. That is 100% only enabled by AI. > You could do all that a century ago Television wasn't even invented a century ago. You could make up some fake story and put it in the newspaper, but people trust their eyes more than words, and they're also moved to action by them more as well. And no, a government absolutely could not run any kind of deception campaign in 1923 anywhere close to what they will be able to when this is perfected. A motivated sole individual with a bit of capital to spare, let alone a government, will be able to run a deception campaign thousands of times more effective than any 1920s trickster's wildest dreams.
  - garba_dlm 3y ago
    > You are being silly about "the law!!!", right? I really do believe this. software will eventually change the very nature of human language and hence of human thought I picked up this line of thought from an academic Walter J. Ong who wrote a book "Orality and literacy" in which he argues that literacy (written word) changed how we think. so I just extend that reasoning. I think that software constitutes a larger change in humanity's thought than the printing press; but that's like my opinion man
vunderba 3y ago
We're much closer for virtual "voice actors" particularly with the advent to do emotional transferrance to map inflection/feeling from a simple recording onto a custom trained TTS.
candiddevmike 3y ago
How will you know the art is "human"?
- swatcoder 3y ago
  The technology inherently tunes into commonalities that associate its training data with incoming prompts and contexts. An operator can push this pretty far with elaborate and carefully designed inputs, but the system is always going to be gravitating towards the patterns it represents most well. When you or I look at our first bunch of outputs, we don’t immediately pick up on the nodes it likes to gravitate towards because there are many many of them, and we meed more of our own training data to become better discriminators. But as these tools become ubiquitous, people will start to get to get this inkling sense of when something feels a little AI-ish. You can already see people do that with ChatGPT and SD/Midjourney output that wasn’t carefully produced. You probably do it yourself. So far, there’s no real way to conceive of these technologies as not being subject to that kind of signature. Like you and me, they’re still capable of incredible variety, but also like you and me, each model will have its own signature that can be more or less discerned. For the arts, that kind of signature means that there will be a continued attention to human artists alongside these systems, because they all bring their own recognizable qualities and aesthetics.
90-00-09 3y ago
Here is evidence: large crowds of extras have already been replaced by CGI. This is a list of 10 movies with the most number of extras: https://www.tasteofcinema.com/2017/10-movies-with-the-most-number-of-extras/ https://www.tasteofcinema.com/2017/10-movies-with-the-most-n.... The most recent entry on the list is from 2003 (~20K extras). Why would anyone hire 20K people for a movie today?
- rcarr 3y ago
  > Why would anyone hire 20K people for a movie today? To make better art. I've seen most of the films in that list are they're incredible films that stick with me and give me a sense of awe today. Watching 1000s of real life people in a scene just creates a sense of spectacle that is just not achievable with current CGI - the brain is just not fooled or impressed like it is when you watch those old films and see the amount of work and effort that must have gone into them. Sergio Morricone hired the Spanish army to build the cemetery at the end of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and it took them several days to make. Nowadays it just takes someone a few clicks of a mouse but it fucking shows as well. Maybe with AI we'll actually get to a point where the brain can be tricked because it gets the lighting right, but at the minute it just doesn't and the films are worse because of it. Just look at how incredible this location is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpVaoA8RfIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpVaoA8RfIk It's even more awesome when you watch the film in it's totality because it builds up slowly, with bigger and bigger scenarios until it culminates with this. And even in potato cam resolution, how impressive is this scene from Cleopatra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_rLwuVP9Zw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_rLwuVP9Zw They just hit different when they're actually real. What's hilarious is that the execs still don't fucking see it. Christopher Nolan is one of the only ones out there still pushing for practical effects and he rakes in the money at the box office more consistently than just about any other director other than Cameron or Spielberg. It's because the films are actually worth watching. Before Oppenheimer, what was the last big film? Top Gun, which also used a ton of real life flight footage. If I want to watch an animation, I'll watch an actual, awesome animation that takes full advantage of the medium like Into The Spiderverse or something from Studio Ghibli. If I want to watch a movie, I want to watch a real flesh and guts movie. Yet 99% of the stuff Hollywood puts out is some weird hybrid shit that is the worst of all worlds. If Hollywood starts making better art, people will start going back to the movies. But they've got greedy. In any other industry, if you made a product, and you got 100% more for it than what it cost to produce you'd consider that a success. But these arseholes don't. They want 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x and they want to milk it for all it's worth and turn it into a fucking "universe" until it just collapses into a heap of shit and no-one even remembers why they liked the original.

garba_dlm 3y ago

> little reason to expect it. there's one huge reason to expect this: it's cheaper than real people (no salary, no royalties) only looks expensive because it's new. but it won't stay expensive because it's all software so it has zero cost of distribution (given the internet) > And its disruption applies to film, illustration, music, coding, writing, etc just keep going, this stuff will disrupt THE LAW. the foundation of civilized society as we know it!!! this goes beyond markets, markets are based upon the law!!!

rnk 3y ago
You are being silly about "the law!!!", right? I do agree that soon we'll have best movies with human actors, best movies with some AI actors, best movies with all AI actors. And then the academy will resist movies with AI actors, then maybe have a special category before they give up because all the movies have them.
- rcarr 3y ago
  I wouldn't say they're being silly no. Think of what is going to happen when anyone on planet earth can make any kind of photo realistic propaganda materials they want. Imagine somewhere else on the planet with tensions between two communities like Israel-Hamas. Now imagine you're someone with an agenda. You can now create videos and news reports in the blink of an eye showing one faction murdering some kids from the other. Target some unstable "pizzagate" individuals with the videos and then wait for one of them to go on a vengeance rampage with the hope that it actually sparks a real riot or war. Or imagine there's a presidential election and one candidate wants to take down the other. So they buy your psychological profile from some data broker, then create a deep fake video of the candidate reading a speech tailored to make you dislike them. You don't even have to go so large scale. Imagine you're a teenager and you're mad because someone else is making moves on the person you fancy. So you decide to create a video of this love rival kicking a dog outside the school and upload it to Youtube under a fake account and then spread it round the school. It will get to the point where you cannot trust anything you see on the internet anymore. Laws are absolutely going to have to be created and rewritten to take into account this new reality. I strongly suspect all social media accounts will need to be tied to ID numbers like passports or social security at some point within the next 20 years.
  - swatcoder 3y ago
    Your first two examples are the only ones that are consequential and you don’t need AI for either. You could do all that a century ago and you can be 100% sure that intelligence agencies have.
    - rcarr 3y ago
      > Your first two examples are the only ones that are consequential Er no. That poor kid might end up getting socially shunned at best and lynch mobbed and killed at worst. I'd say that's pretty fucking consequential. And that's just one example of an infinite amount of scenarios. Every "big" event is just an aggregation of many individual stories. > and you don’t need AI for either. You are massively underestimating the scale of change. In the past you would have needed an entire team working many hours to create one short video of high enough quality to fool people. Now anyone, anywhere, will be able to create them in an instant. Not only that, they will be able to create videos tailored to an individual and delivered to them for maximum effect. That is 100% only enabled by AI. > You could do all that a century ago Television wasn't even invented a century ago. You could make up some fake story and put it in the newspaper, but people trust their eyes more than words, and they're also moved to action by them more as well. And no, a government absolutely could not run any kind of deception campaign in 1923 anywhere close to what they will be able to when this is perfected. A motivated sole individual with a bit of capital to spare, let alone a government, will be able to run a deception campaign thousands of times more effective than any 1920s trickster's wildest dreams.
- garba_dlm 3y ago
  > You are being silly about "the law!!!", right? I really do believe this. software will eventually change the very nature of human language and hence of human thought I picked up this line of thought from an academic Walter J. Ong who wrote a book "Orality and literacy" in which he argues that literacy (written word) changed how we think. so I just extend that reasoning. I think that software constitutes a larger change in humanity's thought than the printing press; but that's like my opinion man

vunderba 3y ago

We're much closer for virtual "voice actors" particularly with the advent to do emotional transferrance to map inflection/feeling from a simple recording onto a custom trained TTS.

candiddevmike 3y ago

How will you know the art is "human"?

swatcoder 3y ago
The technology inherently tunes into commonalities that associate its training data with incoming prompts and contexts. An operator can push this pretty far with elaborate and carefully designed inputs, but the system is always going to be gravitating towards the patterns it represents most well. When you or I look at our first bunch of outputs, we don’t immediately pick up on the nodes it likes to gravitate towards because there are many many of them, and we meed more of our own training data to become better discriminators. But as these tools become ubiquitous, people will start to get to get this inkling sense of when something feels a little AI-ish. You can already see people do that with ChatGPT and SD/Midjourney output that wasn’t carefully produced. You probably do it yourself. So far, there’s no real way to conceive of these technologies as not being subject to that kind of signature. Like you and me, they’re still capable of incredible variety, but also like you and me, each model will have its own signature that can be more or less discerned. For the arts, that kind of signature means that there will be a continued attention to human artists alongside these systems, because they all bring their own recognizable qualities and aesthetics.

90-00-09 3y ago

Here is evidence: large crowds of extras have already been replaced by CGI. This is a list of 10 movies with the most number of extras: https://www.tasteofcinema.com/2017/10-movies-with-the-most-number-of-extras/ https://www.tasteofcinema.com/2017/10-movies-with-the-most-n.... The most recent entry on the list is from 2003 (~20K extras). Why would anyone hire 20K people for a movie today?

rcarr 3y ago
> Why would anyone hire 20K people for a movie today? To make better art. I've seen most of the films in that list are they're incredible films that stick with me and give me a sense of awe today. Watching 1000s of real life people in a scene just creates a sense of spectacle that is just not achievable with current CGI - the brain is just not fooled or impressed like it is when you watch those old films and see the amount of work and effort that must have gone into them. Sergio Morricone hired the Spanish army to build the cemetery at the end of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly and it took them several days to make. Nowadays it just takes someone a few clicks of a mouse but it fucking shows as well. Maybe with AI we'll actually get to a point where the brain can be tricked because it gets the lighting right, but at the minute it just doesn't and the films are worse because of it. Just look at how incredible this location is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpVaoA8RfIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpVaoA8RfIk It's even more awesome when you watch the film in it's totality because it builds up slowly, with bigger and bigger scenarios until it culminates with this. And even in potato cam resolution, how impressive is this scene from Cleopatra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_rLwuVP9Zw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_rLwuVP9Zw They just hit different when they're actually real. What's hilarious is that the execs still don't fucking see it. Christopher Nolan is one of the only ones out there still pushing for practical effects and he rakes in the money at the box office more consistently than just about any other director other than Cameron or Spielberg. It's because the films are actually worth watching. Before Oppenheimer, what was the last big film? Top Gun, which also used a ton of real life flight footage. If I want to watch an animation, I'll watch an actual, awesome animation that takes full advantage of the medium like Into The Spiderverse or something from Studio Ghibli. If I want to watch a movie, I want to watch a real flesh and guts movie. Yet 99% of the stuff Hollywood puts out is some weird hybrid shit that is the worst of all worlds. If Hollywood starts making better art, people will start going back to the movies. But they've got greedy. In any other industry, if you made a product, and you got 100% more for it than what it cost to produce you'd consider that a success. But these arseholes don't. They want 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x and they want to milk it for all it's worth and turn it into a fucking "universe" until it just collapses into a heap of shit and no-one even remembers why they liked the original.