3 ms·

Ok I understand this but why prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border? Why disallow them from trade while simultaneously not letting t

by voisin 3y ago

Ok I understand this but why prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border? Why disallow them from trade while simultaneously not letting them into Israel?

freedomben 3y ago
Note: If you're referring to things that they've done within the last few days, disregard this comment as this comment was written regarding the way things were before the recent attacks I think it's more nuanced than just them trying to "prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border." In the region, water is scarce and important for both sides. Israel does allow "clean water" into the region, the complaint is that Israel government allows their own people take too much of it (from the perspective of Palestinian farmers). In the American west we have the exact same problem. Farmers higher upstream of the Colorado river want enough water for all their crops, but this would deprive the farmers further west from having enough. There are intense and heated (political) battles between the regions, with both regions feeling like they are getting shortchanged. With food, medicine etc, there's concern that those supplies are going to enemy combatants/terrorists (from the Israeli perspective). This is one of those situations where there aren't really any clear/easy answers.
giraffe_lady 3y ago
So that what? They can become a thriving, economically powerful micronation on their doorstep? With better access to the political and military connections necessary to reclaim what they will always consider their land? Why would israel want that? Why would they allow it, if they have the power to prevent it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- voisin 3y ago
  Isn’t the deck tilted so much in Israel’s favour (economically and militarily) right now, that Palestine doesn’t need to be oppressed in the manner that it is? Isn’t oppressing the Palestinian people what allows groups like Hamas to thrive? (These are honest questions, from someone with essentially no understanding of the current conflict but is trying desperately to make sense of it and is struggling with obviously biased reporting everywhere I look)
  - shemii 3y ago
    First of all, I am biased to my opinions so take everything I say eith a grain of salt. Now, you need to divide your concept of thr Palestinian people to (at least) 2 groups or factions, those that live in Gaza and those that live in the west bank. The major difference between these groups is that Israel is the sovereign over the West Bank but disengaged from Gaza about 18 years ago and since it's disengagement, terrorist groups like Hamas have taken control of the Gaza strip[1]. One could have a long conversation about human rights issues in the West Bank but what is happening in Gaza right now isn't oppression, it's a war. You could point out Israel's blockade of Gaza as a form of oppression but it's just a way for Israel to prevent Hamas from accumulating massive amounts of weapons from certain foreign actors[2]. The really terrible thing ia that Hamas's infrastructure is so deeply linked and interleaved with civilian life it's impossible to fight them effectively without hurting civilians (Israel has some measures to attempt to do that[3] but everything has it's limits). Hamas isn't interested in peace and will slaighter their way to victory whatever happens, they are actively hurting both Gaza and Israeli civilians as we recently observed with the cruel massacre. The world will be better without Hamas, it's heartbreaking it has to happen this way. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_G... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    It's useful to focus on how neither entity is unified or homogenous I think. There are factions within israel that benefit from hamas having power relative to other options. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... A good bit of it is quite simply explained by "they want to do a genocide and this is an effective way of doing it."
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  If you are able to get a supply of rockets into your land, you can get anything that allows you to strive economically. Israel also granted them more autonomy which they repaid with terrorism. Do you just deny that fact? The blind blame of Israel is just tiring. They still want all the land and drive out the Jews. That is no basis to found a prosperous nation.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    It's not blind I'm not blaming israel for anything israel hasn't chosen to do. No one made them do an ethnic cleansing, no one made them keep its refugees in a blockaded prison city. No one makes them bomb palestinian children and assassinate palestinian journalists. These are their choices and they are responsible for them.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      Hamas actually did make israel keep Gazans in a blockaded prison city through repeated terrorist attacks.
      - giraffe_lady 3y ago
        How're you sitting with this one today? Got a clear idea what hamas did to make israel bomb a hospital?

by voisin 3y ago

Ok I understand this but why prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border? Why disallow them from trade while simultaneously not letting them into Israel?

freedomben 3y ago

Note: If you're referring to things that they've done within the last few days, disregard this comment as this comment was written regarding the way things were before the recent attacks I think it's more nuanced than just them trying to "prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border." In the region, water is scarce and important for both sides. Israel does allow "clean water" into the region, the complaint is that Israel government allows their own people take too much of it (from the perspective of Palestinian farmers). In the American west we have the exact same problem. Farmers higher upstream of the Colorado river want enough water for all their crops, but this would deprive the farmers further west from having enough. There are intense and heated (political) battles between the regions, with both regions feeling like they are getting shortchanged. With food, medicine etc, there's concern that those supplies are going to enemy combatants/terrorists (from the Israeli perspective). This is one of those situations where there aren't really any clear/easy answers.

giraffe_lady 3y ago

So that what? They can become a thriving, economically powerful micronation on their doorstep? With better access to the political and military connections necessary to reclaim what they will always consider their land? Why would israel want that? Why would they allow it, if they have the power to prevent it.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
voisin 3y ago
Isn’t the deck tilted so much in Israel’s favour (economically and militarily) right now, that Palestine doesn’t need to be oppressed in the manner that it is? Isn’t oppressing the Palestinian people what allows groups like Hamas to thrive? (These are honest questions, from someone with essentially no understanding of the current conflict but is trying desperately to make sense of it and is struggling with obviously biased reporting everywhere I look)
- shemii 3y ago
  First of all, I am biased to my opinions so take everything I say eith a grain of salt. Now, you need to divide your concept of thr Palestinian people to (at least) 2 groups or factions, those that live in Gaza and those that live in the west bank. The major difference between these groups is that Israel is the sovereign over the West Bank but disengaged from Gaza about 18 years ago and since it's disengagement, terrorist groups like Hamas have taken control of the Gaza strip[1]. One could have a long conversation about human rights issues in the West Bank but what is happening in Gaza right now isn't oppression, it's a war. You could point out Israel's blockade of Gaza as a form of oppression but it's just a way for Israel to prevent Hamas from accumulating massive amounts of weapons from certain foreign actors[2]. The really terrible thing ia that Hamas's infrastructure is so deeply linked and interleaved with civilian life it's impossible to fight them effectively without hurting civilians (Israel has some measures to attempt to do that[3] but everything has it's limits). Hamas isn't interested in peace and will slaighter their way to victory whatever happens, they are actively hurting both Gaza and Israeli civilians as we recently observed with the cruel massacre. The world will be better without Hamas, it's heartbreaking it has to happen this way. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_G... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  It's useful to focus on how neither entity is unified or homogenous I think. There are factions within israel that benefit from hamas having power relative to other options. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... A good bit of it is quite simply explained by "they want to do a genocide and this is an effective way of doing it."
raxxorraxor 3y ago
If you are able to get a supply of rockets into your land, you can get anything that allows you to strive economically. Israel also granted them more autonomy which they repaid with terrorism. Do you just deny that fact? The blind blame of Israel is just tiring. They still want all the land and drive out the Jews. That is no basis to found a prosperous nation.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  It's not blind I'm not blaming israel for anything israel hasn't chosen to do. No one made them do an ethnic cleansing, no one made them keep its refugees in a blockaded prison city. No one makes them bomb palestinian children and assassinate palestinian journalists. These are their choices and they are responsible for them.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Hamas actually did make israel keep Gazans in a blockaded prison city through repeated terrorist attacks.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      How're you sitting with this one today? Got a clear idea what hamas did to make israel bomb a hospital?