4 ms·

I've noticed that people who don't walk or bike usually don't have frame of reference of what cars are capable of, and usually don't understand all of the simul

I've noticed that people who don't walk or bike usually don't have frame of reference of what cars are capable of, and usually don't understand all of the simultaneous requirements that must be fulfilled by pedestrians and cyclists. So you get drivers who don't understand that they need to look both ways even on a one way street, because someone might be using the sidewalk, drivers that don't pay attention to walk signals at intersections, drivers that speed down low traffic streets, or drivers who don't recognize dangerous situations that they create. I own a car, but I bike and walk a lot. The person driving the mutli-ton machine should carry the responsibility of operating it safely. It is a big responsibility, but it is their responsibility to not hurt or threaten others.

zelon88 3y ago
I understand the reasoning behind wanting this to be some kind of David v Goliath story, but this is the real world. Cars don't stop as fast as feet. Everybody is a pedestrian sometimes but not everyone is a driver. You can say accountability belongs to one or the other but one is gonna walk away and one isn't. Personal responsibility should take precedent over right of way. You cannot regulate or control others, but you can regulate yourself. I'm fine with cars having the right of way. They pay for the roads with sales tax, excise tax, gas tax, registration fees, inspection fees, insurance that pays for all kinds of things, and the car itself which is a huge investment into the economy. Quite literally it is the drivers who pay for the infrastructure used by everyone on the road. They earned it.
- youngtaff 3y ago
  Most people who drive also walk… so it’s a completely facetious argument that motorists pay so they should have priority
- eesmith 3y ago
  > You cannot regulate or control others, but you can regulate yourself. However, we are subject to the regulations of the people who came before us, who set up the street and road system to prioritize car transit over other forms of transit. You can't simply ignore that existing system of controls away and claim the main issues are "personal responsibility" and self-regulation. Not after over a century of explicit laws that shaped the very way you live and how you judge what is normal. > They pay for the roads with sales tax, excise tax, gas tax Those fees pay for only about half of the roads. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/gasoline-taxes-and-... says: "Nationwide in 2011, highway user fees and user taxes made up just 50.4 percent of state and local expenses on roads. State and local governments spent $153.0 billion on highway, road, and street expenses but raised only $77.1 billion in user fees and user taxes ($12.7 billion in tolls and user fees, $41.2 billion in fuel taxes, and $23.2 billion in vehicle license taxes).[3] The rest was funded by $30 billion in general state and local revenues and $46 billion in federal aid (approximately $28 billion derived from the federal gasoline tax and $18 billion from general federal revenues or deficit financed)." For another source, https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roads-vUS_1.pdf https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roa... says "general taxes paid by all tax-payers cover nearly as much of the cost of building and maintaining highways as the gas tax and other fees paid by drivers". > Quite literally it is the drivers who pay for the infrastructure used by everyone on the road. Quite literally they do not.
- Fricken 3y ago
  An estimated $597 per U.S.household per year in general tax revenue dedicated to road construction and repair. That's a $597 donation from every non-driving household to every driving household, annually. https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roads-vUS_1.pdf https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roa...
  - callalex 3y ago
    Presumably all those people have their food delivered from the farm to their house on foot? If they ever have a heart attack they will call EMTs to run to them with a stretcher and walk them to the hospital? And they built their home and furniture with trees felled on the lot they live on?
    - eesmith 3y ago
      The (false) assertion was "Quite literally it is the drivers who pay for the infrastructure used by everyone on the road. They earned it." The comment you replied to points out that it was false. You are correct that there are secondary advantages. However, the advantages you listed don't require the extensive and expensive road system the US has. Furthermore, there are secondary disadvantages you must also consider. > Presumably all those people have their food delivered from the farm to their house on foot? You are viewing things through a century of laws meant to encourage vehicle transport over other forms of transport. In places where there are much stronger limits on vehicle transport, you still have truck transport to local grocery stores, but they may be limited to morning delivery hours, or using streets where pedestrians always have the right-of-way over cars. You're probably wondering how people get to the stores. Historically there were corner stores within walking distance, where you would go for essentials, and larger stores you might visit once a week or less. These were replaced by supermarkets, with a larger selection, on the assumption people could drive there and buy many things at once. This lead to Wal-Mart and other big box stores, on the edge of town where land was cheap, and which could only be reached by cars. Public taxes subsidized the road system to get to these larger stores, and made it harder for local stores to compete, leading to an inter-dependency which is hard to break. Furthermore, during COVID our local stores started offering home delivery service, and they've continued to do so. Having one vehicle deliver to 50 homes means fewer cars on the streets, and less need for parking, so less need for driving infrastructure. > If they ever have a heart attack they will call EMTs to run to them with a stretcher and walk them to the hospital? Even Mackinaw Island, which prohibits most motor vehicles, has a motorized ambulance. https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/01/mackinac-islands-new-custom-ambulance-is-a-tribute-to-its-history.html https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/01/mackinac-islands-new-cust... . > And they built their home and furniture with trees felled on the lot they live on? Even if personal vehicles were banned - which isn't going to happen! - there's still the 50% of the road budget which comes from taxes. That is enough to maintain a road system which can provide delivery, construction transport, emergency services, and more. In any case, why should the law be that transport and construction vehicles require right-of-way over pedestrians even in the middle of a city block? As for the secondary effects, why do we have so many paved roads when gravel roads would do? Building and maintaining paved roads is more expensive. But drivers can go faster on paved roads, and traditionally US roads were optimized for drivers. Why do we have city road lanes which are 12-feet wide when 10-foot or 9-foot is safer and takes up less space from other uses? But drivers can go faster with wide lanes (which makes any collisions or crashes more deadly). Why do they need to go faster? Partially because of post-war sprawl, enabled by cars and ideas of zoning purity. Cul-de-sac layouts, which are meant as a way to be safe in a car-dominated community, end up re-enforcing that car dependency, as they are hard to live in without a car. Furthermore, the larger plot size of suburban living means city utilities like power, water, and sewage, are more expensive per capita than more compact pre-war areas. This system of subsidized suburbia was deliberately encouraged by the federal government, and not an organic process. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/we-have-always-subsidized-suburbia/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/we-have-always-subsi... See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa&index=7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ... .

zelon88 3y ago

I understand the reasoning behind wanting this to be some kind of David v Goliath story, but this is the real world. Cars don't stop as fast as feet. Everybody is a pedestrian sometimes but not everyone is a driver. You can say accountability belongs to one or the other but one is gonna walk away and one isn't. Personal responsibility should take precedent over right of way. You cannot regulate or control others, but you can regulate yourself. I'm fine with cars having the right of way. They pay for the roads with sales tax, excise tax, gas tax, registration fees, inspection fees, insurance that pays for all kinds of things, and the car itself which is a huge investment into the economy. Quite literally it is the drivers who pay for the infrastructure used by everyone on the road. They earned it.

youngtaff 3y ago
Most people who drive also walk… so it’s a completely facetious argument that motorists pay so they should have priority
eesmith 3y ago
> You cannot regulate or control others, but you can regulate yourself. However, we are subject to the regulations of the people who came before us, who set up the street and road system to prioritize car transit over other forms of transit. You can't simply ignore that existing system of controls away and claim the main issues are "personal responsibility" and self-regulation. Not after over a century of explicit laws that shaped the very way you live and how you judge what is normal. > They pay for the roads with sales tax, excise tax, gas tax Those fees pay for only about half of the roads. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/gasoline-taxes-and-user-fees-pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/gasoline-taxes-and-... says: "Nationwide in 2011, highway user fees and user taxes made up just 50.4 percent of state and local expenses on roads. State and local governments spent $153.0 billion on highway, road, and street expenses but raised only $77.1 billion in user fees and user taxes ($12.7 billion in tolls and user fees, $41.2 billion in fuel taxes, and $23.2 billion in vehicle license taxes).[3] The rest was funded by $30 billion in general state and local revenues and $46 billion in federal aid (approximately $28 billion derived from the federal gasoline tax and $18 billion from general federal revenues or deficit financed)." For another source, https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roads-vUS_1.pdf https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roa... says "general taxes paid by all tax-payers cover nearly as much of the cost of building and maintaining highways as the gas tax and other fees paid by drivers". > Quite literally it is the drivers who pay for the infrastructure used by everyone on the road. Quite literally they do not.
Fricken 3y ago
An estimated $597 per U.S.household per year in general tax revenue dedicated to road construction and repair. That's a $597 donation from every non-driving household to every driving household, annually. https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roads-vUS_1.pdf https://pirg.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roa...
- callalex 3y ago
  Presumably all those people have their food delivered from the farm to their house on foot? If they ever have a heart attack they will call EMTs to run to them with a stretcher and walk them to the hospital? And they built their home and furniture with trees felled on the lot they live on?
  - eesmith 3y ago
    The (false) assertion was "Quite literally it is the drivers who pay for the infrastructure used by everyone on the road. They earned it." The comment you replied to points out that it was false. You are correct that there are secondary advantages. However, the advantages you listed don't require the extensive and expensive road system the US has. Furthermore, there are secondary disadvantages you must also consider. > Presumably all those people have their food delivered from the farm to their house on foot? You are viewing things through a century of laws meant to encourage vehicle transport over other forms of transport. In places where there are much stronger limits on vehicle transport, you still have truck transport to local grocery stores, but they may be limited to morning delivery hours, or using streets where pedestrians always have the right-of-way over cars. You're probably wondering how people get to the stores. Historically there were corner stores within walking distance, where you would go for essentials, and larger stores you might visit once a week or less. These were replaced by supermarkets, with a larger selection, on the assumption people could drive there and buy many things at once. This lead to Wal-Mart and other big box stores, on the edge of town where land was cheap, and which could only be reached by cars. Public taxes subsidized the road system to get to these larger stores, and made it harder for local stores to compete, leading to an inter-dependency which is hard to break. Furthermore, during COVID our local stores started offering home delivery service, and they've continued to do so. Having one vehicle deliver to 50 homes means fewer cars on the streets, and less need for parking, so less need for driving infrastructure. > If they ever have a heart attack they will call EMTs to run to them with a stretcher and walk them to the hospital? Even Mackinaw Island, which prohibits most motor vehicles, has a motorized ambulance. https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/01/mackinac-islands-new-custom-ambulance-is-a-tribute-to-its-history.html https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/01/mackinac-islands-new-cust... . > And they built their home and furniture with trees felled on the lot they live on? Even if personal vehicles were banned - which isn't going to happen! - there's still the 50% of the road budget which comes from taxes. That is enough to maintain a road system which can provide delivery, construction transport, emergency services, and more. In any case, why should the law be that transport and construction vehicles require right-of-way over pedestrians even in the middle of a city block? As for the secondary effects, why do we have so many paved roads when gravel roads would do? Building and maintaining paved roads is more expensive. But drivers can go faster on paved roads, and traditionally US roads were optimized for drivers. Why do we have city road lanes which are 12-feet wide when 10-foot or 9-foot is safer and takes up less space from other uses? But drivers can go faster with wide lanes (which makes any collisions or crashes more deadly). Why do they need to go faster? Partially because of post-war sprawl, enabled by cars and ideas of zoning purity. Cul-de-sac layouts, which are meant as a way to be safe in a car-dominated community, end up re-enforcing that car dependency, as they are hard to live in without a car. Furthermore, the larger plot size of suburban living means city utilities like power, water, and sewage, are more expensive per capita than more compact pre-war areas. This system of subsidized suburbia was deliberately encouraged by the federal government, and not an organic process. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/we-have-always-subsidized-suburbia/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/we-have-always-subsi... See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa&index=7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ... .