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My issue, as a driver, is that more and more pedestrians walk wherever and whenever they want with complete disregard for their environment. I’ve had to hit the

My issue, as a driver, is that more and more pedestrians walk wherever and whenever they want with complete disregard for their environment. I’ve had to hit the brakes pretty hard on several occasions when I had “right of way” (right turn light, for example) and a pedestrian stepped off the curb with their face buried in their phone. I see the fines for jaywalking as a function to encourage safety rather than criminalizing sensible behaviour (ie crossing a completely empty street probably won’t yield a fine but crossing a busy street while holding your arm out to stop traffic will, and should).

Vinnl 3y ago
Then again, the only reason that that's particularly dangerous is because of the car. Such behaviour in front of a bike, for example, would ve annoying but not really dangerous.
- mcbutterbunz 3y ago
  It would be more dangerous for the cyclist.
  - Vinnl 3y ago
    When a pedestrian and a cyclist collide, it would be more dangerous for the cyclist indeed, I think. But it would be less dangerous for the cyclist, than it would be for a pedestrian to collide with a car. And of course, in the former case, it's the person who chose the riskier mode of transport who assumes the risk.
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  bike brakes are usually pretty terrible though
  - joshuahaglund 3y ago
    Maybe yours but not most people I know who use their bike frequently. Maintaining a bike is cheaper and easier than maintaining a car.
    - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
      maybe the average European bike, which is like this one [1], but much older. Maybe you shouldn't assume your friends represent a representative sample. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle#/media/File:Left_side_of_Flying_Pigeon.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle#/media/File:Left_side_... > Maintaining a bike is cheaper and easier than maintaining a car. but very few do it, given that they are not forced to keep it functional, unlike here, where I live, where your car has to pass a state mandated safety inspection every 2 years.
      - joshuahaglund 3y ago
        If you're gonna complain about my data sources, can you tell me where you are getting yours?
        peoplefromibiza 3y ago
        of course: this is the largest bike parking in the Netherlands (6,000 bikes) [1] You can see by yourself the kind of the average bike and its maintenance state notice: I deliberately chose the Netherlands because it's the country with the most bikes, the best infrastructures for bikes and with the best kept bikes, so Imagine that 90% of the bikes in Europe are in much worse shape that those you can see in the picture. [1] https://www.planetizen.com/files/styles/featured_large/public/images/shutterstock_85250308.jpg.webp?itok=CRmo18jF https://www.planetizen.com/files/styles/featured_large/publi...
    - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
      > Maintaining a bike is cheaper and easier than maintaining a car also debatable I changed the brake pads of my car two years ago, for 50 euros. They are still perfectly functional (according to my mechanic opinion). Admittedly I drive ~200kms a month, but nonetheless maintenance, at least for me, is really cheap.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
    I've biked all my life (never had a car) and I can always brake better than any car at any speed.
    - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
      that's impossible, unless you ride at 3 km/h BTW if you never had a car, how can you tell? does your bike has ABS?
conor- 3y ago
My issue, as a pedestrian, is that more and more drivers are driving with complete disregard for their environment. I've had to jump or run out of the way on several occasions when I had "right of way" (crosswalks or stop signs, for example) and drivers accelerate right through with their face buried in their phone. This problem also exists when cycling on shared bike gutters where oblivious drivers veer out of their lane into the bike lane, roll through stop signs, or are just generally unaware that they're sharing the road with people not surrounded by 1 ton of steel. A pedestrian stepping into the street isn't going to kill other people with their negligence - the burden of caution should not be placed onto them.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  [flagged]
- jeremy_wiebe 3y ago
  Here in Vancouver, I see bad drivers, cyclists who don’t abide by the rules for cyclists, and pedestrians that are also a careless. I don’t disagree that there are bad drivers, but unfortunately it’s the cyclists and pedestrians who pay the highest price for either their or a drivers negligence. So if I’m a pedestrian, I’m going to make sure the cars are stopping before I step into traffic. Doesn’t matter if I’m right or not, I don’t want to be dead.
joeman1000 3y ago
The difference is that you’re cocooned in a tonne of steel, hurtling along at speeds which kill pedestrians. The onus is on both parties to be vigilant, but it’s more on you as a driver. As soon as you get over this entitled view, like the road is your own little go-kart track, it’s so much easier to drive safely. I used to hold the same view until I started walking regularly and could understand how much the game is tipped towards cars. Their environment is unescapable and every time you interact with a road as a ped. there’s a huge chance you might die. There’s nearly no chance you’ll die by hitting a pedestrian as you drive. Just drive slower and pay more attention. It’s just not that bloody hard at all.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > As soon as you get over this entitled view, like the road is your own little go-kart track This view was not espoused by the OP. You've made it up for some reason.
  - joeman1000 3y ago
    They’re complaining about pedestrians not being vigilant. I’m saying drive slower and more carefully, fully expecting that peds will carelessly cross the road, and there will be fewer issues.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      We agree that you did make up the "go-kart" nonsense. On responsibility - each party has one. Don't stumble across streets glued to your phone; don't drive recklessly. There's no point pretending one is the real responsibility. It just adds noise.
- jeremy_wiebe 3y ago
  Contrary to your characterization of me, I’m a cautious driver. What in my post led you to believe I’m entitled? > Their environment is unescapable and every time you interact with a road as a ped. there’s a huge chance you might die. I’m not excusing bad driving, but when I walk, this is plenty enough reason for me to be doubly cautious. I don’t trust any driver until they’ve stopped.
bitwize 3y ago
That's the thing. If it weren't for the prioritization of auto traffic, crossing the street at arbitrary places and times would still be "sensible behavior". Everything you think you know about cities and the role of pedestrians is wrong -- a distortion introduced by auto companies to diminish walking and public transport and encourage automobile purchases. We are currently radically rethinking our cities and imagining a greatly diminished role for cars in them.
- tzs 3y ago
  > That's the thing. If it weren't for the prioritization of auto traffic, crossing the street at arbitrary places and times would still be "sensible behavior". That's not really correct. Even if all types of traffic (cars, pedestrians, bikes, etc) had the same priority you will often get much better flow for everyone and improved safety by requiring traffic streams going in different direction to cross to certain points, and in higher traffic areas requiring some kind of turn taking at crossings. This is often even true when you've only got one type of traffic.
- jeremy_wiebe 3y ago
  So are you also arguing that pedestrians crossing at arbitrary places and times across a busy bike path is also something that is sensible behaviour?
candybar 3y ago
If you find yourself having to hit the brakes hard frequently because a pedestrian stepped off the curb while being distracted, you probably also need to pay more attention while driving. My general experience is that in practice, in most areas, most drivers don't yield enough and most pedestrians yield too much because the pedestrian has a lot more to lose. It's also important to remember that driving is a privilege specifically granted by the state, walking is not.
Timshel 3y ago
Not from the us but I would not expect a car to have priority at a right turn.
- tzs 3y ago
  He said it was at a right turn light. That suggests an intersection where there is a specific traffic light for controlling right turns. Those are usually synchronized with the walk signals controlling the crosswalks that the right turns will cross, so that the car does not have a green at the same time the pedestrians have a walk signal.

Vinnl 3y ago

Then again, the only reason that that's particularly dangerous is because of the car. Such behaviour in front of a bike, for example, would ve annoying but not really dangerous.

mcbutterbunz 3y ago
It would be more dangerous for the cyclist.
- Vinnl 3y ago
  When a pedestrian and a cyclist collide, it would be more dangerous for the cyclist indeed, I think. But it would be less dangerous for the cyclist, than it would be for a pedestrian to collide with a car. And of course, in the former case, it's the person who chose the riskier mode of transport who assumes the risk.
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
bike brakes are usually pretty terrible though
- joshuahaglund 3y ago
  Maybe yours but not most people I know who use their bike frequently. Maintaining a bike is cheaper and easier than maintaining a car.
  - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
    maybe the average European bike, which is like this one [1], but much older. Maybe you shouldn't assume your friends represent a representative sample. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle#/media/File:Left_side_of_Flying_Pigeon.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle#/media/File:Left_side_... > Maintaining a bike is cheaper and easier than maintaining a car. but very few do it, given that they are not forced to keep it functional, unlike here, where I live, where your car has to pass a state mandated safety inspection every 2 years.
    - joshuahaglund 3y ago
      If you're gonna complain about my data sources, can you tell me where you are getting yours?
      - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
        of course: this is the largest bike parking in the Netherlands (6,000 bikes) [1] You can see by yourself the kind of the average bike and its maintenance state notice: I deliberately chose the Netherlands because it's the country with the most bikes, the best infrastructures for bikes and with the best kept bikes, so Imagine that 90% of the bikes in Europe are in much worse shape that those you can see in the picture. [1] https://www.planetizen.com/files/styles/featured_large/public/images/shutterstock_85250308.jpg.webp?itok=CRmo18jF https://www.planetizen.com/files/styles/featured_large/publi...
  - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
    > Maintaining a bike is cheaper and easier than maintaining a car also debatable I changed the brake pads of my car two years ago, for 50 euros. They are still perfectly functional (according to my mechanic opinion). Admittedly I drive ~200kms a month, but nonetheless maintenance, at least for me, is really cheap.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
  I've biked all my life (never had a car) and I can always brake better than any car at any speed.
  - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
    that's impossible, unless you ride at 3 km/h BTW if you never had a car, how can you tell? does your bike has ABS?

conor- 3y ago

My issue, as a pedestrian, is that more and more drivers are driving with complete disregard for their environment. I've had to jump or run out of the way on several occasions when I had "right of way" (crosswalks or stop signs, for example) and drivers accelerate right through with their face buried in their phone. This problem also exists when cycling on shared bike gutters where oblivious drivers veer out of their lane into the bike lane, roll through stop signs, or are just generally unaware that they're sharing the road with people not surrounded by 1 ton of steel. A pedestrian stepping into the street isn't going to kill other people with their negligence - the burden of caution should not be placed onto them.

robertlagrant 3y ago
[flagged]
jeremy_wiebe 3y ago
Here in Vancouver, I see bad drivers, cyclists who don’t abide by the rules for cyclists, and pedestrians that are also a careless. I don’t disagree that there are bad drivers, but unfortunately it’s the cyclists and pedestrians who pay the highest price for either their or a drivers negligence. So if I’m a pedestrian, I’m going to make sure the cars are stopping before I step into traffic. Doesn’t matter if I’m right or not, I don’t want to be dead.

joeman1000 3y ago

The difference is that you’re cocooned in a tonne of steel, hurtling along at speeds which kill pedestrians. The onus is on both parties to be vigilant, but it’s more on you as a driver. As soon as you get over this entitled view, like the road is your own little go-kart track, it’s so much easier to drive safely. I used to hold the same view until I started walking regularly and could understand how much the game is tipped towards cars. Their environment is unescapable and every time you interact with a road as a ped. there’s a huge chance you might die. There’s nearly no chance you’ll die by hitting a pedestrian as you drive. Just drive slower and pay more attention. It’s just not that bloody hard at all.

robertlagrant 3y ago
> As soon as you get over this entitled view, like the road is your own little go-kart track This view was not espoused by the OP. You've made it up for some reason.
- joeman1000 3y ago
  They’re complaining about pedestrians not being vigilant. I’m saying drive slower and more carefully, fully expecting that peds will carelessly cross the road, and there will be fewer issues.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    We agree that you did make up the "go-kart" nonsense. On responsibility - each party has one. Don't stumble across streets glued to your phone; don't drive recklessly. There's no point pretending one is the real responsibility. It just adds noise.
jeremy_wiebe 3y ago
Contrary to your characterization of me, I’m a cautious driver. What in my post led you to believe I’m entitled? > Their environment is unescapable and every time you interact with a road as a ped. there’s a huge chance you might die. I’m not excusing bad driving, but when I walk, this is plenty enough reason for me to be doubly cautious. I don’t trust any driver until they’ve stopped.

bitwize 3y ago

That's the thing. If it weren't for the prioritization of auto traffic, crossing the street at arbitrary places and times would still be "sensible behavior". Everything you think you know about cities and the role of pedestrians is wrong -- a distortion introduced by auto companies to diminish walking and public transport and encourage automobile purchases. We are currently radically rethinking our cities and imagining a greatly diminished role for cars in them.

tzs 3y ago
> That's the thing. If it weren't for the prioritization of auto traffic, crossing the street at arbitrary places and times would still be "sensible behavior". That's not really correct. Even if all types of traffic (cars, pedestrians, bikes, etc) had the same priority you will often get much better flow for everyone and improved safety by requiring traffic streams going in different direction to cross to certain points, and in higher traffic areas requiring some kind of turn taking at crossings. This is often even true when you've only got one type of traffic.
jeremy_wiebe 3y ago
So are you also arguing that pedestrians crossing at arbitrary places and times across a busy bike path is also something that is sensible behaviour?

candybar 3y ago

If you find yourself having to hit the brakes hard frequently because a pedestrian stepped off the curb while being distracted, you probably also need to pay more attention while driving. My general experience is that in practice, in most areas, most drivers don't yield enough and most pedestrians yield too much because the pedestrian has a lot more to lose. It's also important to remember that driving is a privilege specifically granted by the state, walking is not.

Timshel 3y ago

Not from the us but I would not expect a car to have priority at a right turn.

tzs 3y ago
He said it was at a right turn light. That suggests an intersection where there is a specific traffic light for controlling right turns. Those are usually synchronized with the walk signals controlling the crosswalks that the right turns will cross, so that the car does not have a green at the same time the pedestrians have a walk signal.