6 ms·

I’ve had tinnitus for about one year now. There is no permanent relief or treatment. Lots of snake oil. My hearing was tested by an Audiologist and my hearing

I’ve had tinnitus for about one year now. There is no permanent relief or treatment. Lots of snake oil. My hearing was tested by an Audiologist and my hearing was normal. The “sound” I observe is high pitched. Using a tone generator I matched it to around 16,500 Hz. Interestingly, if I play that tone I get temporary relief on the order of 2-10 minutes. As far as I understand my tinnitus is the result of something going wonky with the signal processing in the brain. If you’re suffering from tinnitus for the first time it’s important to remain calm. There is defiantly an amplifying effect from the psychological aspect of tinnitus. Eventually the body will “habituate” if it does not go away. It took me around 3-6 months to be able to ignore it. During the day I rarely hear it. At night a little more. Playing sounds at a low volume on a Bluetooth speaker helps. For example on Spotify an artist called “TMSOFT” has good stuff. In the day I’ll listen to jazz or lofi. It’s important to protect your ears. iPhone has a hearing protection feature for headphones and I have it on the lowest setting. I would avoid in-ear headphones. Use hearing protection at concerts.

hbossy 3y ago
Have you tried playing that tone and shifting it's phase to cancel the imaginary signal?
- od1nos 3y ago
  Phase is a physical property of sound waves that cannot influence a signal originating from the brain or cochlea.
  - eps 3y ago
    Doesn't mean you can't match it.
  - simbolit 3y ago
    Yea, but he proposed shifting the phase of the physical signal (16.5khz) which supposedly matches the frequency of the imaginary signal. I still think it's unlikely to work.
    - od1nos 3y ago
      I understand, and there could very well be some psychoacoustic cancellation when stimulating with a matching tone. But any effect will be regardless of the phase of the signal, because phase cancellation is a physical effect of sound waves that occurs before they are converted to neural activity (where tinnitus originates from). In simpler terms: tinnitus does not have phase, at least not in the same way a sound wave does.
      - FreeFull 3y ago
        Neutral activity itself definitely takes phase into account somehow, since you can hear the phase difference of two same-frequency tones being played independently into each ear, without any kind of sufficiently strong mechanical connection that would explain it.
        Tor3 3y ago
        I experimented with this when I was young and I concur - it's really like this. Astonishing but that's how it works.
      - imetatroll 3y ago
        I think though that the brain is also considering the spacial relationship of the sound to the listener. Hearing the sound from an external source rather than "inside your brain" does provide relief in my experience.
  - bennettbackward 3y ago
    It's fun to test what happens when you play the same wave through your headphones but one channel is inverted. Funny enough lots of stereo widening magic relies on a physical property of sound not existing when it's in your head.
    - tomxor 3y ago
      If you ever wire a loudspeaker channel the wrong way around, it feels very weird as a lot (but not all for a stereo mix) of the sound will cancel with the other channel in the middle of the speakers and you can move your head through this dead zone. I've never tried it with headphones, but I suppose even though destructive addition isn't going to happen it might affect things like intended spatial perception.
      - f4c39012 3y ago
        Happened once when prepping for a language aural exam. With no immediate fix and the start of the exam pending, we moved some desks instead!
- highertellurian 3y ago
  AFAIK when there is not enough external sound input, the brain amplifies the signals from the inner ear in an attempt to compensate which leads to hyperactivity in the auditory nerve and auditory cortex, which can be perceived as tinnitus. So you cannot cancel a 'signal' that doesn't exist. This is my understanding and I may be wrong.
- leviathant 3y ago
  What I've done is to tune a sine wave to match the frequency of the tinnitus, then notch that frequency in white noise, and blast the result for a few minutes. My tinnitus has not been permanent, it's just the rare occasion where I forget earplugs for a concert, and come home work ringing in an ear. This technique makes the ringing go away for a while, but it creeps up again after some time. Thankfully, it has always completely gone away after a day or two.
jraby3 3y ago
Aren’t in ear headphones with noise cancellation better than not using them and instead raising the volume to overcome background noise?
- jshmrsn 3y ago
  If the “sound” is an internal perception, then noise cancelling headphones would not help at all. They might make it worse by quieting any background sounds that could otherwise help cover up the internally produced sensations.
  - mettamage 3y ago
    It depends on your tinnitus itself. My tinnitus gets crowded out by a loud environment, I don't tend to hear it. I only hear my tinnitus when there's no sound. So for me, noise-cancelling headphones do give some temporary symptom relief. Wearing a Bose QC 35 is so important for me when I go to sleep, because the ANC also blocks out sound and blocks out my tinnitus to some extend. It's a bit of a skill to sleep with them (you can get audio feedback of the ANC mics) but I've mastered it and improved my sleep game a lot because of it.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      But active noise cancellation removes (perceived) sound. Wouldn't that make it worse, then?
      - mettamage 3y ago
        The way I experience it is as follows. Normally: - Tinnitus: 100% With ANC: - Tinnitus: 50% - Bose ANC: 50% I like the ANC sound more than my tinnitus. I haven't noticed my tinnitus becoming worse or less worse.
        lxgr 3y ago
        Oh, by “the ANC sound”, do you mean the white noise floor of the ANC? In that case, have you tried something like the Bose Sleepbuds? Same idea, much more comfortable to sleep with.
criddell 3y ago
I’ve had tinnitus for something like 5 years now and mine varies from day-to-day. Mine seems to be somewhat connected to diet. I think salt might be a trigger. If I have a French Fries or some other salty snack, I’m in for louder ringing an hour or two later.
- Delk 3y ago
  I seem to remember that high blood pressure could worsen tinnitus, so that might have something to do with it.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  Dad went through acute hearing loss twice. They banned salt during recovery. Your tinnitus is related to blood circulation in the ear. Reduce salt.
  - maccard 3y ago
    Have you any citations for this? This is exactly the sort of stuff people are to about about when referring to snake oil
    - bayindirh 3y ago
      Citations? I remember the prescriptions and Doctors' notes for the diet itself. He had to endure through IV drug treatments at home, was not able to sleep for 17 days because of the given drugs. I remember cooking everything without salt (then buying reduced sodium salt for some time because he missed the taste of it to a certain degree), stop buying sparkling water, how my father tried to cope with the remaining tinnitus after the hearing loss mostly reversed (>95% IIRC), and how it increased and decreased over time. He still doesn't drink sparkling water, we still cook with reduced salt. If we deviate from this, his tinnitus increases, yet he tries to hide it from us. Do you need any more citations? Mom also has tinnitus, but hers is different, not affected by diet. She uses an advanced hearing aid which counters it using sound somehow. She is relieved to a certain point with it. There are different kinds, reasons. Need to understand each case.
stinos 3y ago
There is no permanent relief or treatment. Lots of snake oil. That's not what this recent book [1] says, at all. In Ducth, but [2] is a translation of the main point in an interview. As far as I'm aware, this guy is rather far away from snake oil. What is true though is that not all audiologists are caught up yet. Which is a bit weird because I already read about multidisciplinary approach working a couple of years ago IIRC. Which does obviously not mean it works for everyone, but also not 'there is no permanent relief'. [1] Bart Vinck: Tinnitus, een schaduw van geluid [2] Can tinnitus disappear completely? "Absolutely, it happens very often. It's to say: we all hear sounds in our heads, only we don't experience them consciously. After all, the brain forgets sounds that are not relevant, just like I don't feel the glasses I'm wearing now. "Our brain does nothing but sort out stimuli: this is important, that is not important. Logical too, otherwise we would go crazy with all the stimuli constantly coming in. "My message is not to learn to live with that beep, but to train your brain to classify that sound as harmless, allowing you to forget about it. Feel free to call it an auditory reset of your brain." What does such a treatment look like? "It has been proven that a multidisciplinary approach works well. Through an intense therapy bath, we try to reset the brain so that that beep or squawk is no longer threatening: patients receive 20 hours of therapy over four days. "You also have to find other ways to vent tension and take care of yourself. Physiotherapists and osteopaths additionally work on the physical problems. Our patients often suffer from other psychosomatic complaints: they clench their jaws or have tense neck and shoulder muscles. "Some 96 percent of our patients report afterwards that the impact of the tinnitus has been greatly reduced. Unfortunately, psychotherapy is barely reimbursed."
- Twirrim 3y ago
  > "My message is not to learn to live with that beep, but to train your brain to classify that sound as harmless, allowing you to forget about it" This is essentially what I do. I've had it tinnitus for some 20 years now. Both ears, a constant high pitched ringing. Most of the time I honestly don't notice it, even in quiet rooms. As soon as something reminds me about it, or I'm trying to listen for something quiet, or certain high pitch sounds go off (my least favourite is flashbang like effects on TV or in games), it'll come back with a vengeance. So e.g right now because I saw this HN post, it's feeling especially loud. It'll probably be about an hour before I'll forget to think about it (for want of a better description), and I go back to not noticing it.
mettamage 3y ago
It took me 6 months as well, noise-canceling headphones give me some temporary relief, not full though. My tinnitus came after a night out during a time in my life where I went out a lot.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
There was one treatment - I think it was posted on HN - that played sounds slightly above and below the frequency, which provided temporary or permanent relief.
Jsebast24 3y ago
I've had tinnitus since a few years ago. It went away since maybe 9 months ago. It came back this morning in the same second I read the title of this post.
- notbeuller 3y ago
  There was an old peanuts cartoon[1] where Linus suddenly becomes “aware of his tongue” - and Lucy gets angry because she comes aware too. A lot of spam ads I see these days reference tinnitus - and that’s when I notice it. [1] https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1963/02/03 https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1963/02/03
darksim905 3y ago
Were you born premature? Did you get any head damage or injuries growing up? Do you notice any difference when you stretch, and specifically, are looking up and have your head back? I've noticed the ringing stops for me at that point. But I also have a high pitched, 24x7 bi-lateral ringing. I've had it my whole life.
vinc 3y ago
Same thing for me. I started to hear it at night when the room was quiet 7 years ago, and then progressively all the time. The first year was hard, I saw a few specialists who told me there was nothing to do about it. In the end I accepted it and now it doesn't bother me anymore. The more you are upset about it and the worse it is. I only wish I could be able to hear the silence again, but there are worst things in life. My hypothesis is that it was always there but somehow the filter I had for it stopped working. A bit like eye floaters.
fatnoah 3y ago
> Eventually the body will “habituate” if it does not go away. This has been my experience. If I "notice" it, then I hear it until it goes away again. Of course, one thing that causes such notice is reading anything about it. :(
ryandrake 3y ago
> I’ve had tinnitus for about one year now. There is no permanent relief or treatment. Lots of snake oil. Half of the 200+ post comment section reads like those bottom of the barrel YouTube ads with the AI generated voices: "Try this secret trick to cure your [condition]." It seems to always happen when someone comes here to ask for opinions on disease, food, health or fitness. People, don't go to HN for medical or nutrition advice. So far, we've already seen: Magic audio tracks, shocking the tongue, steroids, and Ambien, and those are only the top few root subthreads.
- vorpalhex 3y ago
  Tinnitus may have a psychological component. Many people, in this thread, talk about reducing or removing alcohol and having improvement. Alcohol does very weird things to sleep and the stress cycle. One of the things that occasionally freaks people out is that magical talismans, regardless the magic.. actually work - at above placebo! In fact, even fake magical talismans.. work.. at above placebo.. Psychological things are very real and can be measured but can be influenced in funny ways. Something may genuinely fix or help the issue and not actually treat the direct symptom.
  - bigDinosaur 3y ago
    The fake magical talisman is the placebo, so it cannot be superior to the placebo. At least I'm not sure of any useful study to demonstrate anything about real talismans if you're not using the fake one as a placebo.
- vonjuice 3y ago
  We don't know the workings of tinnitus, so tinnitus itself is in the realm of "magic", so there is likely not going to be objective solutions. However, people still have to live with it, and it causes stress. What are you going to do, nothing, just because there's no treatment that lives up to the standards of hackernews readers? The statement that there is no permanent relief or treatment is false, and it's delivered with the same confidence as some of the snake oil advice.

hbossy 3y ago

Have you tried playing that tone and shifting it's phase to cancel the imaginary signal?

od1nos 3y ago
Phase is a physical property of sound waves that cannot influence a signal originating from the brain or cochlea.
- eps 3y ago
  Doesn't mean you can't match it.
- simbolit 3y ago
  Yea, but he proposed shifting the phase of the physical signal (16.5khz) which supposedly matches the frequency of the imaginary signal. I still think it's unlikely to work.
  - od1nos 3y ago
    I understand, and there could very well be some psychoacoustic cancellation when stimulating with a matching tone. But any effect will be regardless of the phase of the signal, because phase cancellation is a physical effect of sound waves that occurs before they are converted to neural activity (where tinnitus originates from). In simpler terms: tinnitus does not have phase, at least not in the same way a sound wave does.
    - FreeFull 3y ago
      Neutral activity itself definitely takes phase into account somehow, since you can hear the phase difference of two same-frequency tones being played independently into each ear, without any kind of sufficiently strong mechanical connection that would explain it.
      - Tor3 3y ago
        I experimented with this when I was young and I concur - it's really like this. Astonishing but that's how it works.
    - imetatroll 3y ago
      I think though that the brain is also considering the spacial relationship of the sound to the listener. Hearing the sound from an external source rather than "inside your brain" does provide relief in my experience.
- bennettbackward 3y ago
  It's fun to test what happens when you play the same wave through your headphones but one channel is inverted. Funny enough lots of stereo widening magic relies on a physical property of sound not existing when it's in your head.
  - tomxor 3y ago
    If you ever wire a loudspeaker channel the wrong way around, it feels very weird as a lot (but not all for a stereo mix) of the sound will cancel with the other channel in the middle of the speakers and you can move your head through this dead zone. I've never tried it with headphones, but I suppose even though destructive addition isn't going to happen it might affect things like intended spatial perception.
    - f4c39012 3y ago
      Happened once when prepping for a language aural exam. With no immediate fix and the start of the exam pending, we moved some desks instead!
highertellurian 3y ago
AFAIK when there is not enough external sound input, the brain amplifies the signals from the inner ear in an attempt to compensate which leads to hyperactivity in the auditory nerve and auditory cortex, which can be perceived as tinnitus. So you cannot cancel a 'signal' that doesn't exist. This is my understanding and I may be wrong.
leviathant 3y ago
What I've done is to tune a sine wave to match the frequency of the tinnitus, then notch that frequency in white noise, and blast the result for a few minutes. My tinnitus has not been permanent, it's just the rare occasion where I forget earplugs for a concert, and come home work ringing in an ear. This technique makes the ringing go away for a while, but it creeps up again after some time. Thankfully, it has always completely gone away after a day or two.

jraby3 3y ago

Aren’t in ear headphones with noise cancellation better than not using them and instead raising the volume to overcome background noise?

jshmrsn 3y ago
If the “sound” is an internal perception, then noise cancelling headphones would not help at all. They might make it worse by quieting any background sounds that could otherwise help cover up the internally produced sensations.
- mettamage 3y ago
  It depends on your tinnitus itself. My tinnitus gets crowded out by a loud environment, I don't tend to hear it. I only hear my tinnitus when there's no sound. So for me, noise-cancelling headphones do give some temporary symptom relief. Wearing a Bose QC 35 is so important for me when I go to sleep, because the ANC also blocks out sound and blocks out my tinnitus to some extend. It's a bit of a skill to sleep with them (you can get audio feedback of the ANC mics) but I've mastered it and improved my sleep game a lot because of it.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    But active noise cancellation removes (perceived) sound. Wouldn't that make it worse, then?
    - mettamage 3y ago
      The way I experience it is as follows. Normally: - Tinnitus: 100% With ANC: - Tinnitus: 50% - Bose ANC: 50% I like the ANC sound more than my tinnitus. I haven't noticed my tinnitus becoming worse or less worse.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        Oh, by “the ANC sound”, do you mean the white noise floor of the ANC? In that case, have you tried something like the Bose Sleepbuds? Same idea, much more comfortable to sleep with.

criddell 3y ago

I’ve had tinnitus for something like 5 years now and mine varies from day-to-day. Mine seems to be somewhat connected to diet. I think salt might be a trigger. If I have a French Fries or some other salty snack, I’m in for louder ringing an hour or two later.

Delk 3y ago
I seem to remember that high blood pressure could worsen tinnitus, so that might have something to do with it.
bayindirh 3y ago
Dad went through acute hearing loss twice. They banned salt during recovery. Your tinnitus is related to blood circulation in the ear. Reduce salt.
- maccard 3y ago
  Have you any citations for this? This is exactly the sort of stuff people are to about about when referring to snake oil
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    Citations? I remember the prescriptions and Doctors' notes for the diet itself. He had to endure through IV drug treatments at home, was not able to sleep for 17 days because of the given drugs. I remember cooking everything without salt (then buying reduced sodium salt for some time because he missed the taste of it to a certain degree), stop buying sparkling water, how my father tried to cope with the remaining tinnitus after the hearing loss mostly reversed (>95% IIRC), and how it increased and decreased over time. He still doesn't drink sparkling water, we still cook with reduced salt. If we deviate from this, his tinnitus increases, yet he tries to hide it from us. Do you need any more citations? Mom also has tinnitus, but hers is different, not affected by diet. She uses an advanced hearing aid which counters it using sound somehow. She is relieved to a certain point with it. There are different kinds, reasons. Need to understand each case.

stinos 3y ago

There is no permanent relief or treatment. Lots of snake oil. That's not what this recent book [1] says, at all. In Ducth, but [2] is a translation of the main point in an interview. As far as I'm aware, this guy is rather far away from snake oil. What is true though is that not all audiologists are caught up yet. Which is a bit weird because I already read about multidisciplinary approach working a couple of years ago IIRC. Which does obviously not mean it works for everyone, but also not 'there is no permanent relief'. [1] Bart Vinck: Tinnitus, een schaduw van geluid [2] Can tinnitus disappear completely? "Absolutely, it happens very often. It's to say: we all hear sounds in our heads, only we don't experience them consciously. After all, the brain forgets sounds that are not relevant, just like I don't feel the glasses I'm wearing now. "Our brain does nothing but sort out stimuli: this is important, that is not important. Logical too, otherwise we would go crazy with all the stimuli constantly coming in. "My message is not to learn to live with that beep, but to train your brain to classify that sound as harmless, allowing you to forget about it. Feel free to call it an auditory reset of your brain." What does such a treatment look like? "It has been proven that a multidisciplinary approach works well. Through an intense therapy bath, we try to reset the brain so that that beep or squawk is no longer threatening: patients receive 20 hours of therapy over four days. "You also have to find other ways to vent tension and take care of yourself. Physiotherapists and osteopaths additionally work on the physical problems. Our patients often suffer from other psychosomatic complaints: they clench their jaws or have tense neck and shoulder muscles. "Some 96 percent of our patients report afterwards that the impact of the tinnitus has been greatly reduced. Unfortunately, psychotherapy is barely reimbursed."

Twirrim 3y ago
> "My message is not to learn to live with that beep, but to train your brain to classify that sound as harmless, allowing you to forget about it" This is essentially what I do. I've had it tinnitus for some 20 years now. Both ears, a constant high pitched ringing. Most of the time I honestly don't notice it, even in quiet rooms. As soon as something reminds me about it, or I'm trying to listen for something quiet, or certain high pitch sounds go off (my least favourite is flashbang like effects on TV or in games), it'll come back with a vengeance. So e.g right now because I saw this HN post, it's feeling especially loud. It'll probably be about an hour before I'll forget to think about it (for want of a better description), and I go back to not noticing it.

mettamage 3y ago

It took me 6 months as well, noise-canceling headphones give me some temporary relief, not full though. My tinnitus came after a night out during a time in my life where I went out a lot.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

There was one treatment - I think it was posted on HN - that played sounds slightly above and below the frequency, which provided temporary or permanent relief.

Jsebast24 3y ago

I've had tinnitus since a few years ago. It went away since maybe 9 months ago. It came back this morning in the same second I read the title of this post.

notbeuller 3y ago
There was an old peanuts cartoon[1] where Linus suddenly becomes “aware of his tongue” - and Lucy gets angry because she comes aware too. A lot of spam ads I see these days reference tinnitus - and that’s when I notice it. [1] https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1963/02/03 https://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1963/02/03

darksim905 3y ago

Were you born premature? Did you get any head damage or injuries growing up? Do you notice any difference when you stretch, and specifically, are looking up and have your head back? I've noticed the ringing stops for me at that point. But I also have a high pitched, 24x7 bi-lateral ringing. I've had it my whole life.

vinc 3y ago

Same thing for me. I started to hear it at night when the room was quiet 7 years ago, and then progressively all the time. The first year was hard, I saw a few specialists who told me there was nothing to do about it. In the end I accepted it and now it doesn't bother me anymore. The more you are upset about it and the worse it is. I only wish I could be able to hear the silence again, but there are worst things in life. My hypothesis is that it was always there but somehow the filter I had for it stopped working. A bit like eye floaters.

fatnoah 3y ago

> Eventually the body will “habituate” if it does not go away. This has been my experience. If I "notice" it, then I hear it until it goes away again. Of course, one thing that causes such notice is reading anything about it. :(

ryandrake 3y ago

> I’ve had tinnitus for about one year now. There is no permanent relief or treatment. Lots of snake oil. Half of the 200+ post comment section reads like those bottom of the barrel YouTube ads with the AI generated voices: "Try this secret trick to cure your [condition]." It seems to always happen when someone comes here to ask for opinions on disease, food, health or fitness. People, don't go to HN for medical or nutrition advice. So far, we've already seen: Magic audio tracks, shocking the tongue, steroids, and Ambien, and those are only the top few root subthreads.

vorpalhex 3y ago
Tinnitus may have a psychological component. Many people, in this thread, talk about reducing or removing alcohol and having improvement. Alcohol does very weird things to sleep and the stress cycle. One of the things that occasionally freaks people out is that magical talismans, regardless the magic.. actually work - at above placebo! In fact, even fake magical talismans.. work.. at above placebo.. Psychological things are very real and can be measured but can be influenced in funny ways. Something may genuinely fix or help the issue and not actually treat the direct symptom.
- bigDinosaur 3y ago
  The fake magical talisman is the placebo, so it cannot be superior to the placebo. At least I'm not sure of any useful study to demonstrate anything about real talismans if you're not using the fake one as a placebo.
vonjuice 3y ago
We don't know the workings of tinnitus, so tinnitus itself is in the realm of "magic", so there is likely not going to be objective solutions. However, people still have to live with it, and it causes stress. What are you going to do, nothing, just because there's no treatment that lives up to the standards of hackernews readers? The statement that there is no permanent relief or treatment is false, and it's delivered with the same confidence as some of the snake oil advice.