5 ms·

Actually, electricity markets in Europe work just fine, and provide in fact a lot of required stability. And income events are pretty much instantanious. The on

by hef19898 3y ago

Actually, electricity markets in Europe work just fine, and provide in fact a lot of required stability. And income events are pretty much instantanious. The only problem European markets have is way too low costs for CO2 certificates which make coal plants way to cheap. Other than that, they work just fine.

cyberax 3y ago
Nope. They are not fine. Europe is floundering with its renewable transition. Right now it's easy to build tons of cheap low-quality wind or solar generation, but it's not economic to build any kind of storage. As a result, Europe is now dependent on natural gas and coal during the winter. And there's nothing that can change that within the next decade.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Strong claims. Any evidence to back them up, besides "Germany shutting nuclear stupid"?
  - cyberax 3y ago
    Germany is the main culprit. There's no plan for fossil fuel phaseout in Germany, or for most of the European countries that are not blessed with almost limitless hydroenergy. Cheap renewables allowed Europe to quickly slash some emissions, but now they're hitting a hard wall of reality: the wintertime sucks for renewables in Europe.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Germany will exit coal none later than 2038. I guess the rest of comment is just as wrong as the first claim. You still didn't bring up nuclear, I am almost surprised.
      - cyberax 3y ago
        Yeah, and it'll switch to natgas. Great improvement. Not.
        hef19898 3y ago
        Youbsaid Germany doesn't have a plan to exit fossil fuels. I showed they in fact do. You are not happy, fair enough. But since everything being done is either not enough or not feasible, what exactly is your proposal?
        cyberax 3y ago
        > I showed they in fact do. You actually haven't shown that. Coal exit does not mean fossil fuel exit. And I have not seen an actual plan to get out of fossil fuels, apart from general hand-waving. And I mean an actual plan, with detailed location of new power storage plants, exact targets for renewables, etc.
        hef19898 3y ago
        Such a plan is currently being prepared for coal. Gas, as a means to cover peaks on short notice, is still needed so, but also much better than coal, especially at significantly lower volumes. This is a classic case of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. And revamping huge portions of an energy grid, and generation base, is nothing that is done easily or fast. Edit: Source in German: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/Kohleausstieg/start.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet...
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > This is a classic case of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good No. If you say they're exiting fossil fuels, but they're moving on to gas, your claim is just wrong. Gas might be better than coal, but that wasn't the claim.
- haakonhr 3y ago
  Aren't you saying the same thing? If externalities were priced appropriately, then storage probably would be a good investment.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  I have hard time seeing that electricity markets in Europe were designed with a view to achieving a renewable transition (some lib service notwithstanding), so not sure that is a failure of the market as designed.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  "Europe" is not a country. France finished it's nuclear build-out decades ago. It's still got issues, but the matter is sorted. The UK is adding scads of wind power every day. Ditto for Spain, only with solar. Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and Finland have mix of hydro, nuclear, and renewables. Yes, Germany is screwing the pooch on this one. Most places east of Germany isn't doing much better. But their failure is theirs, and not their Western and Northern neighbours.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    The wind power over here is nice, but hopefully the nuclear gets rolling[0]. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61010605 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61010605
    - xnorswap 3y ago
      Unfortunately, "UK Plans..." has become statements for the purpose of electioneering rather than serious intent. See also the list of announced projects that mere days later had to said to be "illustrative": https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/09/list-of-projects-to-be-funded-by-hs2-money-only-illustrative-sunak-says https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/09/list-of-proj...
  - throwaway50182 3y ago
    The western neighbours have outsized influence on EU policy compared to the east, of course they have to take part of the blame. EU energy policy made visible changes on the markets and landscape of the eastern republics - and the people here hate the EU for it. For example, it created a whole class of "solar barons" who used the EU regulation to get free money that now everyone has to pay for, and for the necessary energy storage that the "barons" are not on the hook for. The population here would've preferred to go nuclear, but EU forced it to support this instead.
    - dukeyukey 3y ago
      Specifically what EU policies that the more renewable-and-nuclear friendly countries voted for do you have in mind?

cyberax 3y ago

Nope. They are not fine. Europe is floundering with its renewable transition. Right now it's easy to build tons of cheap low-quality wind or solar generation, but it's not economic to build any kind of storage. As a result, Europe is now dependent on natural gas and coal during the winter. And there's nothing that can change that within the next decade.

hef19898 3y ago
Strong claims. Any evidence to back them up, besides "Germany shutting nuclear stupid"?
- cyberax 3y ago
  Germany is the main culprit. There's no plan for fossil fuel phaseout in Germany, or for most of the European countries that are not blessed with almost limitless hydroenergy. Cheap renewables allowed Europe to quickly slash some emissions, but now they're hitting a hard wall of reality: the wintertime sucks for renewables in Europe.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Germany will exit coal none later than 2038. I guess the rest of comment is just as wrong as the first claim. You still didn't bring up nuclear, I am almost surprised.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      Yeah, and it'll switch to natgas. Great improvement. Not.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Youbsaid Germany doesn't have a plan to exit fossil fuels. I showed they in fact do. You are not happy, fair enough. But since everything being done is either not enough or not feasible, what exactly is your proposal?
        cyberax 3y ago
        > I showed they in fact do. You actually haven't shown that. Coal exit does not mean fossil fuel exit. And I have not seen an actual plan to get out of fossil fuels, apart from general hand-waving. And I mean an actual plan, with detailed location of new power storage plants, exact targets for renewables, etc.
        hef19898 3y ago
        Such a plan is currently being prepared for coal. Gas, as a means to cover peaks on short notice, is still needed so, but also much better than coal, especially at significantly lower volumes. This is a classic case of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. And revamping huge portions of an energy grid, and generation base, is nothing that is done easily or fast. Edit: Source in German: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/ElektrizitaetundGas/Kohleausstieg/start.html https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Elektrizitaet...
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > This is a classic case of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good No. If you say they're exiting fossil fuels, but they're moving on to gas, your claim is just wrong. Gas might be better than coal, but that wasn't the claim.
haakonhr 3y ago
Aren't you saying the same thing? If externalities were priced appropriately, then storage probably would be a good investment.
RandomLensman 3y ago
I have hard time seeing that electricity markets in Europe were designed with a view to achieving a renewable transition (some lib service notwithstanding), so not sure that is a failure of the market as designed.
dukeyukey 3y ago
"Europe" is not a country. France finished it's nuclear build-out decades ago. It's still got issues, but the matter is sorted. The UK is adding scads of wind power every day. Ditto for Spain, only with solar. Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and Finland have mix of hydro, nuclear, and renewables. Yes, Germany is screwing the pooch on this one. Most places east of Germany isn't doing much better. But their failure is theirs, and not their Western and Northern neighbours.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  The wind power over here is nice, but hopefully the nuclear gets rolling[0]. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61010605 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61010605
  - xnorswap 3y ago
    Unfortunately, "UK Plans..." has become statements for the purpose of electioneering rather than serious intent. See also the list of announced projects that mere days later had to said to be "illustrative": https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/09/list-of-projects-to-be-funded-by-hs2-money-only-illustrative-sunak-says https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/09/list-of-proj...
- throwaway50182 3y ago
  The western neighbours have outsized influence on EU policy compared to the east, of course they have to take part of the blame. EU energy policy made visible changes on the markets and landscape of the eastern republics - and the people here hate the EU for it. For example, it created a whole class of "solar barons" who used the EU regulation to get free money that now everyone has to pay for, and for the necessary energy storage that the "barons" are not on the hook for. The population here would've preferred to go nuclear, but EU forced it to support this instead.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    Specifically what EU policies that the more renewable-and-nuclear friendly countries voted for do you have in mind?