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> in this specific case poorly informed opinion... It's hard to not see the IDF as a barbarous relic of it's own collective trauma from the Holocaust at this p

> in this specific case poorly informed opinion... It's hard to not see the IDF as a barbarous relic of it's own collective trauma from the Holocaust at this point; I personally think they are just as appalling as the German Nazis themselves and the US enables and funds this for Geo-political strategy: I believe in free speech and feel that I can make this argument without impunity as it's based entirely from decades of continual atrocities against Palestinians and overt crimes against Humanity (withholding life critical aid in a pandemic), and international killing of aid workers/activists (flotilla) documented the use of banned munitions on children as they regard them as less than Human while creating an overt surveillance state and exports this tech to other nations to use to monitor their citizens etc... and is only possible because there exists a sort of exceptional situation for Israel, but is it really any different than how the CCP treats the Uhigyers? I don't, and I think both should be condemned for their actions in a Tribunal for Crimes against Humanity alongside Putin's Russia. Except Israel gets to quell any dissent on the topic for fear of being regarded antisemitic which ultimately is used to justify their actions; just so it's clear I find the actions of Hamas reprehensible and vile, but that 'party for Peace' was only a couple of miles from the Gaza border; tell me under what possible distorted form of reality can this be justified? It was noted that the sound of the music was likely heard in Gaza it was so close. This is pretty much the conclusion that a Canadian UN peace keeping intern working in Palestine and Israel relations came to when we worked together on an unrelated job: that the victims often become the abuser and Gaza is a perfect example of how that has occurred in my Life-time. And that is what is taking place once more seeing innocent lives lost for the actions of a political extreme minority; it is these kind of actions that have made me an anarchist in the end, as it is always normal people who suffer most in these systems. That problem in-lies that a forced consensus is made: by not supporting the IDF/Israel inhumane actions, let alone claiming to be Pro-Palestine, it's made into a false equivalence of thinking you are are pro-Hamas, which is only possible if the overt censorship that I'm worried about is prevalent. If a Law firm cannot distinguish that its a more nuanced matter, but will instead crumble under such pressure one has to ask 'how come' and 'why' doesn't it? I think this a matter of censorship, with much more dire underlying issues, more than it is anything else.

tguvot 3y ago
the funny part, that you wrote a very long post that tries to be "nuanced", yet, you are missing so many nuances and facts that it's not too different from average headline of "israel performs genocide" i just saw fascinating thread on /r/politics when somebody, obviously arab, from one of the poorer countries probably tried to explain to other people what is middle east and how it clicks. he was blamed for trying to gaslight and writing funfiction. unless you live this world day to day, from inside, i am not sure if you can form an informed opinion because so many things are lost. so many nuances. so many day-to-day facts that even if they will appear in western media they will loose in process most of facts. even on freaken wikipedia list of terror acts in city where i lived misses like half of them. including the one on bus stop next to my school which served only kids. i am not going to argue with you or try to point on all the things that you missed in your well thought out post. i did enough of it on kuro5hin. i mostly healed of "somebody is wrong on the internet". time to concentrate on not crying for people on both side of conflict, for sake of my ukrainian wife. she had enough of crying of her own in last 2 years c'ya
- atoav 3y ago
  Everybody has their own gaze with which they judge what they see. As someone who has been following world politics since young age and really would love to see this seemingly everlasting conflict resolved and human suffering on all sides reduced, my prefered solution would be one where the Palestinians are alive, free and lost all incentives to carry out terrorist attacks so that both sides in this conflict can finally attempt to embrace what they have in common instead of fighting each other. My worry is that this is not something a big part of Israel even wants to attempt — or maybe they lost the faith that this could ever be possible — so they want the Palestinians to just be gone. The problem with wanting a group of people to "just be gone" is that there is no ethical, no clean way of doing it and the act of even attempting it would produce new problems of unspeakable proportions. If you talk about the small things, the terrorist attacks that didn't make it to wikipedia, I am sure your Palestinian counterpart would talk about similar things from their daily lives that make living hell for them or collective punishment they received just for being part of a certain ethnic group. You might mention a relative that got killed in a terrorist attack, they might mention a relative that got killed in a raid that happened before or after. And both of you are of course right and anybody not from the region (like me) would have a hard time to make something of that competition of suffering. But I don't think that this competition is going to solve anything and winning it isn't worth it. Without having people on both sides rising above and extending an olive branch this won't end well. Granted, it still might end, but I don't feel well to see the people who had to experience the unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust to solve their problems in a way that results in a group of other people "being gone". This would remain a stain on Israel forever, just like the Holocaust should remain a stain on Austria and Germany forever.

tguvot 3y ago

the funny part, that you wrote a very long post that tries to be "nuanced", yet, you are missing so many nuances and facts that it's not too different from average headline of "israel performs genocide" i just saw fascinating thread on /r/politics when somebody, obviously arab, from one of the poorer countries probably tried to explain to other people what is middle east and how it clicks. he was blamed for trying to gaslight and writing funfiction. unless you live this world day to day, from inside, i am not sure if you can form an informed opinion because so many things are lost. so many nuances. so many day-to-day facts that even if they will appear in western media they will loose in process most of facts. even on freaken wikipedia list of terror acts in city where i lived misses like half of them. including the one on bus stop next to my school which served only kids. i am not going to argue with you or try to point on all the things that you missed in your well thought out post. i did enough of it on kuro5hin. i mostly healed of "somebody is wrong on the internet". time to concentrate on not crying for people on both side of conflict, for sake of my ukrainian wife. she had enough of crying of her own in last 2 years c'ya

atoav 3y ago
Everybody has their own gaze with which they judge what they see. As someone who has been following world politics since young age and really would love to see this seemingly everlasting conflict resolved and human suffering on all sides reduced, my prefered solution would be one where the Palestinians are alive, free and lost all incentives to carry out terrorist attacks so that both sides in this conflict can finally attempt to embrace what they have in common instead of fighting each other. My worry is that this is not something a big part of Israel even wants to attempt — or maybe they lost the faith that this could ever be possible — so they want the Palestinians to just be gone. The problem with wanting a group of people to "just be gone" is that there is no ethical, no clean way of doing it and the act of even attempting it would produce new problems of unspeakable proportions. If you talk about the small things, the terrorist attacks that didn't make it to wikipedia, I am sure your Palestinian counterpart would talk about similar things from their daily lives that make living hell for them or collective punishment they received just for being part of a certain ethnic group. You might mention a relative that got killed in a terrorist attack, they might mention a relative that got killed in a raid that happened before or after. And both of you are of course right and anybody not from the region (like me) would have a hard time to make something of that competition of suffering. But I don't think that this competition is going to solve anything and winning it isn't worth it. Without having people on both sides rising above and extending an olive branch this won't end well. Granted, it still might end, but I don't feel well to see the people who had to experience the unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust to solve their problems in a way that results in a group of other people "being gone". This would remain a stain on Israel forever, just like the Holocaust should remain a stain on Austria and Germany forever.