4 ms·

I see stuff like this, and the first place my mind goes isn't to the antisemitism (it really never dies), or student-run organizations saying dumb things (again

I see stuff like this, and the first place my mind goes isn't to the antisemitism (it really never dies), or student-run organizations saying dumb things (again, not surprising). The first place my mind goes, is... does Harvard not teach history classes?

nielsbot 3y ago
What do you mean not teach history class? I am not well informed about this area—is there specific history you referring to?
- candiodari 3y ago
  Most importantly? That history is nuanced and that no single event determines all of history. That every country invaded and conquered every single cm of land they currently occupy, with only a few stupid exceptions in particularly inhospitable places (like I believe Iceland).
swatcoder 3y ago
It doesn’t take much to reject someone else’s accounting of history. In fact, almost every conflict involves competing histories because they’re an essential part of establishing legitimacy for a cause. People put a lot of effort into developing persuasive ones. Histories can do a better or worse job of relating facts, but they’re never authoritative. Activists will always have their own, as will the authorities that they are agitating against.
- refurb 3y ago
  This is a great comment. And not only that, a lot of history involves interpretation of motives, which attempts to boil down rather complex, multi-faceted decisions into one overarching motive which makes it easy to paint historical events in very positive/negative lights.
- tcbawo 3y ago
  All histories are a simplification of reality into a digestible and memorable form. It is never the complete story. The further back you go, the more of a caricature historical figures become.
Prickle 3y ago
I want to seriously question what you mean by "History". The history I understand places blame on the British Empire and the neo Israeli State. My understanding of this situation is that terrorism is initiated by Islamic jihadists. The environment that allows those jihadists to thrive is created by Israel. The Gaza strip, is the poster child of how to create an adversarial environment that breeds terrorism.
- tguvot 3y ago
  actually... after arabs rejected partition plan and Israel fought it independence war, Egypt took over Gaza strip and Jordan over entire west bank. Instead of establishing there Palestinian state Jordan annexed west bank at 1950 and Egypt fenced off gaza strip with all palestinians. For next 20 years it was the state of affairs till Israel took over the territories in 1967. So maybe it's Egypt fault ? When peace agreement with Egypt was signed, it refused to take back Gaza. So maybe it's Egypt Fault ? And extra fun fact: there is UN report dated 1982 or something which described effects of Israeli occupation. The outcome was modern infrastructure, literacy rate jumping up by tens of percent, infant deaths falling down and life expectancy going up by 10 or 15 years. If this is " poster child of how to create an adversarial environment that breeds terrorism.", well...
  - Prickle 3y ago
    The amount of revisionist history here is a bit absurd. Let us make it clear. Israel outright denied multiple partition maps. Israel had the advantage of being on the side designing the UN maps too. It is incredibly well known that most of the maps proposed by Israel included Jerusalem as exclusively Israeli territory. They also allocated more land to Israel than the Arabs, despite having less than half the population. On average, 60% of the land, going to less than 30% of the population. No fucking shit the Arabs were having none of it. So no, that's a completely stupid and nonsense argument. Egypt closing the border? You forgot the time period. Everyone has closed borders. Egypt was one of them. And either way, this is irrelevant. Israel kicked out Palestinians, not Egypt. Further more, you claim the increase in education is some sort of Israeli achievement. It is not. It is literally the global trend in literacy throughout at the time. You could literally say the same thing about Japan, China, India. Finally, Gaza itself. Look at the west bank. Do you see hamas attacking from there? No. It is from Lebanon and Gaza. Why? Because Palestinians can actually have a life in the WestBank. Because Gaza is a literal 1:1 open air prison. Digging wells is illegal, all Gaza water is owned by Israel Fishing is illegal. All water rights are owned by Israel. (Not a joke) Exports are almost completely illegal. Imports as well. Business is mostly illegal, primarily to "stop hamas from acquiring funds". Immigration is also illegal. You are only allowed to leave with a work visa. Good luck getting one. Education is practically non existent. Ironically, Israel has literally demolished multiple schools in Gaza. People born in Gaza basically cannot leave. So you have a poorly educated, frustrated population. Tons of spare time, nothing they can do. And then along comes Hamas. "Hey kiddo, wanna see the outside world?"
slowmovintarget 3y ago
Harvard has been focused on cultivating leftist ideologues, so no, they don't teach history as you might understand it. They teach rewritten history, where the West are only evil colonialists, everything wrong with the world is because of "the patriarchy," and capitalism is to be fought and destroyed. A standard subset of this ideology is "Israel bad."
tguvot 3y ago
Based on different discussion here and on different /r/ it looks like curriculums do not really cover british and french adventures in middle east/africa and the outcomes. it feels like only people who live in one of the countries that were impacted/created by drawing lines on maps actually familiar with history of the region

nielsbot 3y ago

What do you mean not teach history class? I am not well informed about this area—is there specific history you referring to?

candiodari 3y ago
Most importantly? That history is nuanced and that no single event determines all of history. That every country invaded and conquered every single cm of land they currently occupy, with only a few stupid exceptions in particularly inhospitable places (like I believe Iceland).

swatcoder 3y ago

It doesn’t take much to reject someone else’s accounting of history. In fact, almost every conflict involves competing histories because they’re an essential part of establishing legitimacy for a cause. People put a lot of effort into developing persuasive ones. Histories can do a better or worse job of relating facts, but they’re never authoritative. Activists will always have their own, as will the authorities that they are agitating against.

refurb 3y ago
This is a great comment. And not only that, a lot of history involves interpretation of motives, which attempts to boil down rather complex, multi-faceted decisions into one overarching motive which makes it easy to paint historical events in very positive/negative lights.
tcbawo 3y ago
All histories are a simplification of reality into a digestible and memorable form. It is never the complete story. The further back you go, the more of a caricature historical figures become.

Prickle 3y ago

I want to seriously question what you mean by "History". The history I understand places blame on the British Empire and the neo Israeli State. My understanding of this situation is that terrorism is initiated by Islamic jihadists. The environment that allows those jihadists to thrive is created by Israel. The Gaza strip, is the poster child of how to create an adversarial environment that breeds terrorism.

tguvot 3y ago
actually... after arabs rejected partition plan and Israel fought it independence war, Egypt took over Gaza strip and Jordan over entire west bank. Instead of establishing there Palestinian state Jordan annexed west bank at 1950 and Egypt fenced off gaza strip with all palestinians. For next 20 years it was the state of affairs till Israel took over the territories in 1967. So maybe it's Egypt fault ? When peace agreement with Egypt was signed, it refused to take back Gaza. So maybe it's Egypt Fault ? And extra fun fact: there is UN report dated 1982 or something which described effects of Israeli occupation. The outcome was modern infrastructure, literacy rate jumping up by tens of percent, infant deaths falling down and life expectancy going up by 10 or 15 years. If this is " poster child of how to create an adversarial environment that breeds terrorism.", well...
- Prickle 3y ago
  The amount of revisionist history here is a bit absurd. Let us make it clear. Israel outright denied multiple partition maps. Israel had the advantage of being on the side designing the UN maps too. It is incredibly well known that most of the maps proposed by Israel included Jerusalem as exclusively Israeli territory. They also allocated more land to Israel than the Arabs, despite having less than half the population. On average, 60% of the land, going to less than 30% of the population. No fucking shit the Arabs were having none of it. So no, that's a completely stupid and nonsense argument. Egypt closing the border? You forgot the time period. Everyone has closed borders. Egypt was one of them. And either way, this is irrelevant. Israel kicked out Palestinians, not Egypt. Further more, you claim the increase in education is some sort of Israeli achievement. It is not. It is literally the global trend in literacy throughout at the time. You could literally say the same thing about Japan, China, India. Finally, Gaza itself. Look at the west bank. Do you see hamas attacking from there? No. It is from Lebanon and Gaza. Why? Because Palestinians can actually have a life in the WestBank. Because Gaza is a literal 1:1 open air prison. Digging wells is illegal, all Gaza water is owned by Israel Fishing is illegal. All water rights are owned by Israel. (Not a joke) Exports are almost completely illegal. Imports as well. Business is mostly illegal, primarily to "stop hamas from acquiring funds". Immigration is also illegal. You are only allowed to leave with a work visa. Good luck getting one. Education is practically non existent. Ironically, Israel has literally demolished multiple schools in Gaza. People born in Gaza basically cannot leave. So you have a poorly educated, frustrated population. Tons of spare time, nothing they can do. And then along comes Hamas. "Hey kiddo, wanna see the outside world?"

slowmovintarget 3y ago

Harvard has been focused on cultivating leftist ideologues, so no, they don't teach history as you might understand it. They teach rewritten history, where the West are only evil colonialists, everything wrong with the world is because of "the patriarchy," and capitalism is to be fought and destroyed. A standard subset of this ideology is "Israel bad."

tguvot 3y ago

Based on different discussion here and on different /r/ it looks like curriculums do not really cover british and french adventures in middle east/africa and the outcomes. it feels like only people who live in one of the countries that were impacted/created by drawing lines on maps actually familiar with history of the region